Full Disclosure mailing list archives
Re: 0day: PDF pwns Windows
From: "North, Quinn" <QNorth () iso com>
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2007 13:51:51 -0400
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0day /thread --=Q=-- -----Original Message----- From: full-disclosure-bounces () lists grok org uk [mailto:full-disclosure-bounces () lists grok org uk] On Behalf Of Jason Sent: Tuesday, September 25, 2007 11:55 AM To: J. Oquendo Cc: Chad Perrin; pdp (architect); Gadi Evron; Casper.Dik () Sun COM; full-disclosure () lists grok org uk; Crispin Cowan Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] 0day: PDF pwns Windows J. Oquendo wrote:
Jason wrote:You present a valid position but fall short of seeing the whole picture.As an attacker, nation state or otherwise, my goal being to cripple communications, 0day is the way to go. Resource exhaustion takes resources, something the 0day can deprive the enemy of.Counterpoint... You're trying to shoot me down with 0day crap: You --> 0day attack --> My Infrastructure Me --> Botnet --> Your infrastructure
Perhaps, if you can catch me everywhere I can be. The problem is that my attacks, using my 0day, are run from your infrastructure by my forward teams, long entrenched in your society. If I want to knock out your infrastructure to render it unusable I'm going to do it in a way that I can either - control when and how it goes down and makes it resistant to restore efforts (Exploiting vulns to gain control ) - destroy it entirely causing you to expend massive resources to rebuild it
Never having to consume any resources other than a point and click shoot em up attack, I necessarily won't even have to use my own resources. So shoot away as your network becomes saturated.Knocking out infrastructure with attacks is a far more effective strategy. You can control it's timing, launch it with minimal resources, from anywhere, coordinate it, and be gone before it can be thwarted. The botnet would only serve as cover while the real attack happens.In a strategic war, most countries aim to eliminate supply points and mission critical infrastructure as quickly as possible. In a cyberwarfare situation me personally, I would aim to 1) disrupt/stop via a coordinated attack whether its via a botnet or something perhaps along the lines of a physical cut to a nation's fiber lines. 0day would only serve me afterwards to perhaps maintain covert states of communication. Maybe inject disinformation through crapaganda. Imagine an enemies entire website infrastructure showing tailored news... Would truly serve a purpose AFTER the attack not during.
You don't start that after the fact, you start it before, maintain it during, and follow through victory.
I am more inclined to believe that botnets in use today really only serve as cover, thuggish retribution, and extortion tools, not as effective tools of warfare. No real warfare threat would risk exposing themselves through the use of or construction of a botnet.Luckily for most companies and government, botnets aren't being used for their full potential. And I don't mean potential as in they're a good thing. I could think up a dozen cyberware scenarios in minutes that would cripple countries and businesses. I believe countries, providers and governments should at some point get the picture and perhaps create guidelines to curtail the potential for havoc - imagine hospitals being attacked and mission critical life saving technologies taken offline.
The botnet still only serves as cover for this activity. It is a tool, like the rest, but not a primary weapon for use in active wide scale infrastructure dos. Taking out infrastructure on a wide scale using resource exhaustion requires too much resource. _______________________________________________ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/ _______________________________________________ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Current thread:
- Re: defining 0day, (continued)
- Re: defining 0day Juergen Marester (Sep 25)
- Re: defining 0day Juergen Marester (Sep 25)
- Re: 0day: PDF pwns Windows Lawrence Paul MacIntyre (Sep 25)
- Re: 0day: PDF pwns Windows Crispin Cowan (Sep 25)
- Re: 0day: PDF pwns Windows J. Oquendo (Sep 25)
- Re: 0day: PDF pwns Windows Jason (Sep 25)
- Re: 0day: PDF pwns Windows J. Oquendo (Sep 25)
- Re: 0day: PDF pwns Windows Valdis . Kletnieks (Sep 25)
- Re: 0day: PDF pwns Windows Gadi Evron (Sep 25)
- Re: 0day: PDF pwns Windows Jason (Sep 25)
- Re: 0day: PDF pwns Windows North, Quinn (Sep 25)
- Re: 0day: PDF pwns Windows Steven Adair (Sep 25)
- Re: 0day: PDF pwns Windows Gadi Evron (Sep 25)
- Re: 0day: PDF pwns Windows Iggy E (Sep 25)
- Re: 0day: PDF pwns Windows Geo. (Sep 21)
- Re: 0day: PDF pwns Windows silky (Sep 22)
- Re: 0day: PDF pwns Windows Eduardo Tongson (Sep 22)
- Re: 0day: PDF pwns Windows cocoruder . (Sep 25)
- Re: 0day: PDF pwns Windows h4h (Sep 21)