Full Disclosure mailing list archives
Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle
From: "Sysman" <sysman () vsnl com>
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 13:03:57 +0530
Dear Paul and Timo, (I am responding to separate mails from both of you. Please forgive me for overlapping) Thanks for your maturity of thought and respecting other's opinion. This is the essential essence of any democracy. We agree to disagree on some issues; And agree of others. Today, we may disagree on one issue but tomorrow, I may be one of your biggest supporter (may be more loyal than the king) on another issues. Yes, time and space, cultural, social and political background plays a big role in forming a specific opinion. My respect for you has gone up. Further, I have been watching Germany since Chancellor Billy Brandt in 70s. I have read lot on third reich. I admire the rising of Germany after WW2 and reunification act of 1989. I am also learning more about Germany in your posts, specially from Timo Schoeler. I feel, Germans are handling affairs in a very matured manner. Democracy may not be the best system but it is still better than others, And, it needs lot of discipline. Yes, Germans have not faced any big terror attack since Munich Olympics. So, I can understand the less appreciation of George Orwell's 1984. But, should/can we not learn from other's experience especially Estonia and recently attack on German network (probably by) Chinese? It was your Chancellor Bismarck, who said about 200 years back that wise man learn from other's experience. I fully agree with you that if powers are given to (or taken by) the government (servants), there is a potential to misuse these. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. You (and the world) have seen the same in 1932-45. We still see the same in many countries/nations. So, there must be due checks and controls, else the risk of the Third Reich repeating exist. Let us face it. As the law have been passed by Bundestag, can you do something to reverse it? I do not know the German constitution, but normally the answer should be a big NO. So, what do you do? Thus, now, in my view, your objective must be to work on, to define the robust technological and social checks and controls on the implementation of act. This may-be/is one of the options. There may be other options also, which you need to explore by brain storming. Regards, Rakesh Goyal rakesh () sysman in www.sysman.in PS - I am a technocrat-business-owner, with specialisation in IS Security, IT related laws, Encryption and Forensics. I am not a politician or historian or sociologist. -----Original Message----- From: Paul Sebastian Ziegler [mailto:psz () observed de] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 7:39 PM To: rakesh () sysman in Cc: bugtraq () securityfocus com; 'full-disclosure' Subject: Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA512 Rakesh, even though I do not share your opinion, I still respect it and thank you for telling me about it. People having different opinions is what makes life interesting. To answer your question: Gemany (at least east Germany) has a history of data retention that got out of hand immensely. This is one of the reasons why there are several rights that were supposed to never let something like it happen again. Among those is the right of informational self-determination. I know that you will probably tell me that as long as they don't collect the data itself, this right is still untouched. That is a valid opinion. I just don't share it. Tracking the phone connections (and to emphasize this once more: HayNeedle doesn't do anything against that) along with the locations allows the government to trace almost every single inhabitant over time. If your IP is linked to your persona and anonymizers are taken out of business, then you can not access information anonymously anymore. There have been several laws during the past few months that have taken more and more rights away. And I simply don't think this is a good thing. I completely agree with you that Germany is presently a fine democracy. And I would like it to stay this way. Even if I would trust our current government's competence and goals, I still don't think they should have the 'capability' of turning oppressive. I don't think any government should have that, since no one knows who will be in power next. This is my opinion, which is of course, also questionable and by no means perfect. Germany has never been a country of friendly distance among people of opposite opinions. Most people favor to express their thoughts directly and aggressively. So what I do might seem a little harsh. But I don't think it is. I wouldn't want the world to be ruled by people like me. It would probably end disastrous. There need to be people to push the surveillance factor. And there need to be people to stand up against it. Either extreme is not good. But we can only reach an appropriate solution, if both sides show up and actually do something. I don't think my solution is perfect (not even close). I don't think their laws are good, but that is just my opinion. I respect your opinion as much as you apparently respect mine. And that is a great thing. By the way, I am also engaged in other activities that you consider more democratic. Let me end by saying the following to everyone on the lists: We all know that political debates on international lists tend to get out of hand and cause flames. We see it every second day. I think it is great Rakesh expressed his opinion, and since he asked about it publicly, I gave you mine. As I said, it is not perfect by any means and far be it from me not to respect people who think otherwise. However, for the sake of sanity, I ask you not to write any more opinions regarding this matter to the lists. Of course you are still free to do that, but I won't react on any. The fact being that we have a pretty diverse background and the chances of actually reaching an agreement are more than slim. Many Greetings Paul Sebastian Ziegler -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFHOa/+aHrXRd80sY8RCtaIAJ0VftDh68KfFmAcseWGJTmRHBxvSQCfXXUY JtRjLR7mb18sgeQUA31/G04= =qAKg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.30/1127 - Release Date: 12/11/2007 9:19 PM _______________________________________________ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Current thread:
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle, (continued)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle johan beisser (Nov 12)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle Sysman (Nov 13)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle Valdis . Kletnieks (Nov 13)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle Timo Schoeler (Nov 13)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle Florian Streck (Nov 14)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle sysman (Nov 14)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle LT (Nov 10)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle Paul Sebastian Ziegler (Nov 10)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle Vincent Archer (Nov 12)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle Paul Sebastian Ziegler (Nov 13)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle Sysman (Nov 14)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle Timo Schoeler (Nov 15)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle Sysman (Nov 14)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle imipak (Nov 14)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle Florian Echtler (Nov 14)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle Simon Richter (Nov 18)
- Re: Standing Up Against German Laws - Project HayNeedle Florian Echtler (Nov 14)