Full Disclosure mailing list archives
RE: Most common keystroke loggers?
From: "Renshaw, Rick (C.)" <rrenshaw () ford com>
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2005 15:32:14 -0500
-----Original Message----- From: full-disclosure-bounces () lists grok org uk [mailto:full-disclosure-bounces () lists grok org uk] On Behalf Of foofus () foofus net Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 6:39 PM To: full-disclosure () lists grok org uk Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Most common keystroke loggers? On Sat, Dec 03, 2005 at 12:22:17PM +1300, Nick FitzGerald wrote:
Ahh, no... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halting_problem Basically (and simplifying a lot), the Halting Problem means that you cannot write a computer program to determine if some other program exhibits "function X", _in finite time_.
I don't think this is what the Halting Problem means. My understanding
is that it means you can't write a program to determine if *any* other program exhibits "function X", >in finite time. For a particular program, however, this may be quite feasible. You're right, the particular problem of finding if a program exhibits "function X" is Rice's Theorem, which is related to the Halting problem, but is properly a subset of the problem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice%27s_theorem
Thus, you cannot write a program to detect all viruses, you cannot write a program to detect
key
loggers, you cannot write a prorgram to detect all spyware, etc, etc.
How do you know that the problem of detecting all keystroke loggers is equivalent to the Halting Program? Is there a proof somewhere that keystroke loggers do not share some characteristic that makes them
detectable?
<-- I am not being sarcastic; this is an earnest question.
Quoted (with minor changes of what the function does) from the Rice's theorem page referenced above: Suppose we have an algorithm for examining a program p and determining infallibly whether p is an implementation of a keystroke logger. The claim is that we can convert our algorithm for identifying key loggers into one which identifies functions that halt. We will describe an algorithm with takes inputs a and I and determines whether program a halts when given input i. The algorithm is simple, we construct a new program t which (1) temporarily ignores its input while it tries to execute program a on input i, and then, if that halts, (2) returns whether a keylogger was detected. Clearly, t is a function for finding keyloggers if and only if step 1 halts. Since we've assumed that we can infallibly identify programs for finding keyloggers, we can determine whether t is such a program, and therefore whether program a halts on input i. Note that we needn't actually execute t, we need only decide whether it is a squaring program, and, by hypothesis, we know how to do this.
My formal CS background is weak, but I don't think the problem of
programmatically detecting compromised machines of a given OS (not the general case of "compromised machines >of any sort) has been proven
to be undecidable in the strong way that the Halting Problem has. I
may
be wrong, though, which is why I ask.
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Current thread:
- Re: Most common keystroke loggers?, (continued)
- Re: Most common keystroke loggers? Blue Boar (Dec 02)
- Re: Most common keystroke loggers? Frank Knobbe (Dec 02)
- RE: Most common keystroke loggers? Lyal Collins (Dec 01)
- RE: Most common keystroke loggers? Michael L. Benjamin (Dec 02)
- Re: Most common keystroke loggers? Shannon Johnston (Dec 02)
- RE: Most common keystroke loggers? Debasis Mohanty (Dec 02)
- RE: Most common keystroke loggers? Debasis Mohanty (Dec 02)
- RE: Most common keystroke loggers? Debasis Mohanty (Dec 02)
- Re: Most common keystroke loggers? gboyce (Dec 02)
- Re: Most common keystroke loggers? Nick FitzGerald (Dec 02)
- RE: Most common keystroke loggers? Debasis Mohanty (Dec 02)
- RE: Most common keystroke loggers? Renshaw, Rick (C.) (Dec 05)
- RE: Most common keystroke loggers? John Smith (Dec 06)
- RE: Most common keystroke loggers? Lyal Collins (Dec 08)
- Re: Most common keystroke loggers? Steven (Dec 21)
- Message not available
- Re: Most common keystroke loggers? Mark Senior (Dec 22)
- Message not available