Dailydave mailing list archives
Re: Adversary Simulation
From: benjamin heise <heise.benjamin () gmail com>
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 10:13:00 -0500
Justin Warner actually wrote a, IMO, great overview of adversary emulation and how to carry it out, as well as delving lightly into the Diamond Model of Intrusion Analysis. Does Immunity follow this same model, or have you developed your own model for performing adversary simulation? References: http://www.sixdub.net/?p=762 http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a586960.pdf V/r, Ben On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 3:57 PM, Paul Melson <pmelson () gmail com> wrote:
So are you aware of a criminal actor that uses Immunity's Innuendo in their attacks? If not, then which adversary are you simulating? The point to my obvious straw man is that if you really want to help your clients up their game in detecting and responding to real threats, shouldn't you study the actors that target their industry verticals and emulate their operations using the same tools and tactics they are known to choose? On Nov 29, 2016, at 9:26 AM, dave aitel <dave () immunityinc com> wrote: So obviously everything a penetration testing company does is at some level "Adversary Simulation". I like to call it "Focused Training" - because penetration testing is more about education than anything else, but the WAY you do to that is by emulating and instrumenting some sort of adversarial process. Ok, that said, we have for the past year offered a special service called *Adversary Simulation <https://www.immunityinc.com/services/adversary-simulation.html>* by which we meant something quite specific. We go to some big financial company, usually super under-dressed for the cold because we live in Miami, and we install INNUENDO on a couple machines. Then we exfiltrate a few terabytes of data over whatever protocols are working and we work with the company to do a hardcore analysis of their detection systems for that sort of thing. That sounds simple. But in practice, every company at that size range has multiple products trying to detect you, and they provide overlapping coverage. Sometimes the Alerts are useful, and sometimes not. For example, when you're doing DNS exfiltration, FireEye will alert on the weirdness of the DNS packets. But it has no idea who the infected endpoint is, because those DNS packets came from intermediary DNS servers! :) With web-based analysis systems I worry more about false positives, and of course, false negatives. Detecting beacons from malware but not from, say, DropBox is a hard problem. In theory, products like StealthWatch work, but in practice, that depends on the team. Likewise, there are gaps in the market itself: Who is looking at all outbound e-mail to find data exfiltration channels? And on the host, when faced with a new product, all the protection systems we've seen have not detected INNUENDO. Some of them detect injection, but you don't really need to do that. What if there is too much chaos on a big company's desktop for reputation-based protection systems to work? -dave _______________________________________________ Dailydave mailing list Dailydave () lists immunityinc com https://lists.immunityinc.com/mailman/listinfo/dailydave _______________________________________________ Dailydave mailing list Dailydave () lists immunityinc com https://lists.immunityinc.com/mailman/listinfo/dailydave
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Current thread:
- Adversary Simulation dave aitel (Nov 29)
- Re: Adversary Simulation Paul Melson (Nov 30)
- Re: Adversary Simulation benjamin heise (Nov 30)
- Re: Adversary Simulation Christos Kalkanis (Nov 30)
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- Re: Adversary Simulation Adrian Sanabria (Dec 05)
- Re: Adversary Simulation Paul Melson (Nov 30)