WebApp Sec mailing list archives
Re: WebAppSec Training Courses in UK
From: "Jeff Williams @ Aspect" <jeff.williams () aspectsecurity com>
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 22:40:13 -0500
I'm arguing that if you have $20K to spend, you're better off doing both than one. If someone approached me and said they'd review my web application and didn't ask for the source...I'd look elsewhere. If they didn't ask for access to the staging server and some accounts, same deal. I know it sounds strange to say doing both is the same cost. But in terms of finding the serious holes fast, the combined approach is the way to go. I like securityarchitect's analogy to a medical exam...but the conclusion he/she reached seems wrong to me. Even if I have cancer, I want the doctor to use the cat scan, take my temperature, and check my eyes. I could have West Nile virus and astigmatism. --Jeff Jeff Williams Aspect Security, Inc. www.aspectsecurity.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Spett To: Jeff Williams @ Aspect ; dan () idsec com ; glyn.geoghegan () corsaire com ; securityarchitect () hush com Cc: webappsec () securityfocus com Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 9:16 PM Subject: Re: WebAppSec Training Courses in UK Of course doing both is the best solution, but it may not be economically feasible. That's my point. I don't have figures in front of me on average security budgets, costs of pen-tests, code reviews, etc., but I believe that with what most people have in a security budget and with what most qualified security professionals charge for those services, it is not possible, in most cases, to have both. Or am I missing your point? Kevin Spett SPI Labs http://www.spidynamics.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Williams @ Aspect" <jeff.williams () aspectsecurity com> To: "Kevin Spett" <kspett () spidynamics com>; <dan () idsec com>; <glyn.geoghegan () corsaire com>; <securityarchitect () hush com> Cc: <webappsec () securityfocus com> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 8:56 PM Subject: Re: WebAppSec Training Courses in UK
The underlying question here is -- how do you find the most serious holes for the least money? There are certain problems (concurrency, Easter eggs, design flaws)
that
are extremely difficult to find with penetration testing. Likewise, there are many problems that are invisible when sifting through a mountain of code. I believe there is a strong argument that the most cost-effective approach is to do BOTH. Doesn't that cost twice as much? No -- we've found that reviews that include both penetration testing and code review: - take about the same amount of time - provide a much better completeness argument - find more serious problems - provide better information to developers about how to fix it The problem is building a team that is skilled in both security and
web
app development. To be effective, they need to be able to read and understand the code quickly. I wouldn't want a building inspector who couldn't read the blueprints. So, in my opinion, penetration testing alone is not going to provide
the
best bang for your buck. Code review is way too easy and productive
to
leave out of your balanced security breakfast. --Jeff Jeff Williams Aspect Security, Inc. www.aspectsecurity.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Kevin Spett To: dan () idsec com ; glyn.geoghegan () corsaire com ; securityarchitect () hush com Cc: webappsec () securityfocus com Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 5:27 PM Subject: Re: WebAppSec Training Courses in UK I've got a couple of quick reactions here... and this isn't a rebuttal or a disagreement with what Security Architect wrote, it's some contextual information that should be considered along with it. White box auditing is very, very, very expensive. Normal IT support guys often charge $50 or more an hour these days. A qualified security source code auditor can charge four times that. Plus expenses. But that's not all. There's more than just source code. You've got
to
check the web server for misconfiguration issues. And the web application server. And how about the database server? Having a professional go through all of these steps is a remarkably expensive procedure. Regardless of whether companies *should* budget for that kind of top-to-bottom thorough inspection, most (and by most I
mean
nearly every last one of them) don't. So let's say you've got a $20k budget to make a large web application infastructure as secure as possible. For that money, a skilled pen-test team can probably do more good than
a
source code auditor. Two and a half work weeks (using $200/hour and $20k budget) isn't a whole lot to go through a large codebase, not to
mention
securing multiple server configurations. An experienced pen-test team with good automated black box testing tools will probably be able to find most of the serious issues that most hackers would go after in your regular 40 hour pen test. (Yes, if all they do is run ISS Scanner or Nessus and give you a report warning about parameter tampering, you get screwed.) Of course, the best solution is to set up solid security policies and requirements for coding, configuration, administration, user
management,
etc. in the beginning, but most people don't have that luxury. So you've got to compromise. If you can pay for it, a complete
security-conscious
overhaul in policy and implementation is a great idea, as is a
complete
manual source code and configuration audit. But in a more practical situation where you've already got something built, maybe even
deployed,
and all of a sudden a manager says 'Hey! Make sure it's secure!' , you may be able to get more bang for your buck with a quality pen-test team. Kevin Spett SPI Labs http://www.spidynamics.com/ ----- Original Message ----- From: <securityarchitect () hush com> To: <dan () idsec com>; <glyn.geoghegan () corsaire com> Cc: <webappsec () securityfocus com> Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 2:08 PM Subject: RE: WebAppSec Training Courses in UKWith respect I think your description of security assessment
training
is woefully inadequate in todays world. Penetration testing is a snapshot at best and a time trial at worst. Having ran some teams for some well known consulting companies in the past I know all to well the business model and why its pushed so hard by them. Now working in corporate America I
also
see why we the clients (yeah we as in my company and others at like minded user groups who surprisingly do talk) are getting very frustrated with some security consulting companies and training companies.<rant> Firstly there is little accountability. Its perceived as an art andnot a science and therefore you really have little confidence that all of
the
things that should have been tested were. Secondly with 78% of attacks being from insiders (see FBI reports) , looking at the hard crunchy outside
is
of little value. Too many companies reports read “High Vulnerability – Parameter tampering”. After the sticker shock you read between the
lines
and find out you can change the page color and they have made an
incredible
leap of faith from that to saying you “may” be able to login in with
another
users username. An indicator of parameter tampering in one place can lead to it in another. It’s the consulting fluff syndrome. You’ve all heard it before I am sure. “These sessionID’s don’t look random”. Well test the randomness if you have a math degree! If not look for the source of randomness and if /urandom is used then call it out.</rant> Someone once used a great analogy. If you’re testing for cancer
would
you take someone’s temperature? Would you look at their eyeballs? Hell No! Get them on the cat scan machine. Even if the eyeballs are dilated and you can tell theyre ill, you still need to locate the problem (offending code) to treat it.One of the things I liked when I spoke to the OWASP testing people
was
how they are going to cover what I think should be included in a web application security testing methodology. In a structured meaningful test you need to firstly sit down and understand the security requirements. How can you ever say there is a problem unless you know the requirements and how it should be? Secondly you need to understand the application architecture. That
’s
an assessment in itself! How are people using JNDI, LDAP JMS <insert architecture component of choice here>. People are finally realizing that XSS is easily cured with a proper architecture;-) You don’t fix it tactically, you fix it strategically.Then there is a technical assessment which is where most people
think
the pen test comes in. But think of this. My requirements have shown that sessions timeout after 20 mins and my architecture review shows I use the servlet container config (server.xml) to do it and the controller servlet to enforce it. I can sit there with a perl script and make a request
every
21 mins to each url (dumb in my opinion) or I can parse web.xml and server.xml for the config. Ones a much more effective way to technically test the requirements have been implemented IMHO. A pen test may have a place
in
ensuring that stuffs functioning as it should be that’s where it
belongs
again IMHO, flamesOff(security, architect).And then there’s a security source code review, a web applicationsecurity management review (what happens when it goes down, who reviews logs, what policy exists to manage the security of the application).Web application security assessment is far more than a pen test.
They
are prevalent because consulting companies can pull the wool of clients
eyes
with buzz words and hacker speak, not to mention the business model
that
works well for the consulting companies. If you pay 40K for a hit and run that’s good business. But if you fix the first hole and have to pay
$40K
for the next then its not economical and the client will soon feel ripped of.And why does this relate to training? Well people IMHO need to betrained that web application security assessment consists of many things not just how to own a web server in 20 mins or how to test for XSS from the outside. Assess strategically not tactically. Asses how security is baked into the development process and not just in a deployment scenario.On Tue, 03 Dec 2002 01:54:14 -0800 Glyn Geoghegan<glyn.geoghegan () corsaire com> wrote:You also need to determine whether the training you want is 1/ Architecting secure applications 2/ Building secure applications 3/ Application Security Assessments (pentesting) Each has a very different target audience, and its own set ofconcerns.Secure application architecture can involve broad concepts (e.g. using proper input validation, building a tiered structure of leastprivilege)or specifics (e.g. secure .Net design). Building secure apps could start with pseudo code examples ofimportantprogramming concepts and drill down into specific languages with their pros and cons. Application Security Assessments could take an application slant on more typical ethical hacking type courses. I believe @Stake, ISS and Defcom provide Application courses in the UK. http://www.atstake.com/services/education/courses.html Glyn.-----Original Message----- From: Dan Cuthbert [mailto:dan () idsec com] Sent: 02 December 2002 21:57 To: phuc4 () hushmail com Cc: webappsec () securityfocus com Subject: Re: WebAppSec Training Courses in UK i think the problem is finding a trainer that understands theproblems associated with web applications and security. also the trainer that is providing the training would need to haveone helluvah understanding of security\building applications and the whole process its a lovely idea... hmmm yeah i can see a owasp opportunity here * phuc4 () hushmail com (phuc4 () hushmail com) wrote:I have unsuccessfully been looking for any decent WebAppSectrainingcourses in the UK. It seems that courses are more on the networking side of thingsorwhen restricted to either specific technologies like J2EEor .Net butI have yet to find a useful technology independent coursethat takesin the wider picture as well as the grimey details. Any ideas? Maybe OWASP could start doing training courses? Concerned about your privacy? Follow this link to get FREE encrypted email: https://www.hushmail.com/?l=2 Big $$$ to be made with the HushMail Affiliate Program: https://www.hushmail.com/about.php?subloc=affiliate&l=427---------------------------------------------------------------- ------ CONFIDENTIALITY: This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the recipient(s) only. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or
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Current thread:
- WebAppSec Training Courses in UK phuc4 (Dec 02)
- Re: WebAppSec Training Courses in UK Dan Cuthbert (Dec 02)
- Re: WebAppSec Training Courses in UK Kevin Spett (Dec 02)
- <Possible follow-ups>
- Re: WebAppSec Training Courses in UK Mark Curphey (Dec 02)
- RE: WebAppSec Training Courses in UK Glyn Geoghegan (Dec 03)
- RE: WebAppSec Training Courses in UK securityarchitect (Dec 03)
- Re: WebAppSec Training Courses in UK Kevin Spett (Dec 03)
- Re: WebAppSec Training Courses in UK Jeff Williams @ Aspect (Dec 03)
- Re: WebAppSec Training Courses in UK Kevin Spett (Dec 03)
- Re: WebAppSec Training Courses in UK Jeff Williams @ Aspect (Dec 03)
- Re: WebAppSec Training Courses in UK Kevin Spett (Dec 03)
- Re: WebAppSec Training Courses in UK Dan Cuthbert (Dec 02)
- RE: WebAppSec Training Courses in UK Glyn (Dec 04)