FC: EPIC dares Larry Ellison to debate; more on national ID cards

[Declan McCullagh <declan () well com>]

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Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 12:04:02 -0700
To: declan () well com, politech () politechbot com
From: Lizard <lizard () mrlizard com>
Subject: Re: FC: Oracle's Larry Ellison lobbies hard for National ID card
In-Reply-To: <5.0.2.1.0.20011020134515.02128b40 () mail well com>

Has everyone but me noted that the hijackers were in the country legally 
and had legal identification, and that, therefore, future hijackers 
following the same modus operandi would have their little fascist "smart 
cards" on them as they committed suicide???

In other words, Mr. Ellison's proposal, if it had been in place on 
September 11, would not have saved ONE SINGLE LIFE. But it WOULD create a 
gross violation of the liberties we're currently bombing the crap out of 
Afghanistan to protect.

Perhaps we need to "accidentally" drop a few "smart bombs" on Silicon Valley.

Heads up, all of you cheering on Mr. Ellison since he opposes Microsoft -- 
anyone who goes crying to the government because he can't run a business 
properly will not respect any OTHER aspect of a free society, either.

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Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 14:30:16 -0400
To: declan () well com, politech () politechbot com
From: Marc Rotenberg <rotenberg () epic org>
Subject: Re: FC: Oracle's Larry Ellison lobbies hard for National ID card

If he doesn't show up, we may distribute "Larry Cards."

Marc.


October 17, 2001

Mr. Larry Ellison, CEO
Oracle Corporation
Attn: Jessica Olson
500 Oracle Parkway
Redwood Shores, CA 94065

Dear Mr. Ellison,

        I am writing to invite you to a panel discussion that will be held 
at the National Press Club in Washington, DC on Monday, October 22 to 
explore the privacy implications of a national ID card, face recognition, 
and other systems of biometric identification. The event is sponsored by 
the Electronic Privacy Information Center (EPIC) and the Privacy Foundation.

        We have moved quickly in the last few days to assemble a group of 
experts for this event. Our current participants include Privacy Foundation 
CTO Richard Smith, Privacy Journal Editor Robert Ellis Smith, New Republic 
Legal Affairs Editor Jeffrey Rosen, RAND Senior Policy Analyst John 
Woodward, and Sun Distinguished Engineer Whitfield Diffie. We are waiting 
to hear from Alan Dershowitz and Senator Feinstein. I will moderate the 
discussion.

        I appreciate that this is late notice. Given the urgent need for 
public debate on these topics, I hope you will consider participating.

        I can be reached at 202-483-1140.

                                                Sincerely yours,


                                                Marc Rotenberg
                                                Executive Director
                                                EPIC

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From: "Ted Coffman" <tcoffman () fidalgo net>
To: <declan () well com>
Subject: Re: Oracle's Larry Ellison lobbies hard for National ID card

Dear Declan,

It isn't like this is the first we have heard from the Oval Office on a "one
size fits all" ID.

Several years ago the Gov decided through the Department of Transportation
to develop a commercial drivers license whose testing requirements would be
the same across all fifty states; The CDL.

Prior to this initiative, it was very easy for a commercial driver to have
more than one license from several different states at the same time, thus
making it impossible to get the really bad drivers off the road through the
ticketing process.  Many states had some really out dated and dysfunctional
testing arrangements.  While this system is not without flaws, it has proven
to be more useful across the board.

National ID's are not going to be that bad IF the Ellison's of the world
don't try and make it something it should not be.

Sincerely,


Ted

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From: adw () connectnet com
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 17:37:23 -0700
To: declan () well com
Subject: "Your Paper Please" say Ashcroft and Ellison, coming soon:
  Your Assets please?
In-Reply-To: <20011020142410.A19193 () cluebot com>

Some not so obvious reasons to object to the so called "Anti Terrorism 
Bill" and it's massive internal surveillance apparatus and Oracle CEO Larry 
Ellison's call for a National ID card.

As an attorney, one of the things that scares me the most is the Federal 
Government's immense power under the RICO Statutes and it's asset 
forfeiture provisions.  This article gives a good lay summary, albeit from 
a source the government has mocked and demonized.  I have not reviewed any 
of the legal recommendations nor would I endorse them without such 
review.  I submit it for it's utility on summarizing the dangers of 
increased federal power under the Terrorism Bill and with a National 
ID.  Once Ellison gets into the game, not only will they track us, but they 
will know exactly where to hit you where it hurts because they will be able 
to efficiently track all our assets even as they change form and move 
throughout the economy.

Under the 4th ammendment law, if they can legally observe you, anything 
they find can basically be used as evidence or probably cause. Under the 
"Terrorism Bill" the limits of who they can observe are almost non 
existent.  Those limits that do exist are full of holes.  The net effect is 
that the Government would be able to cast a wide enough net to look at us 
all.  Do we want such a country where the slightest transgression or 
facetious remark can be used against us as a RICO predicate to charge 
conspiracy?  Do you want your house seized because the Federal Internal 
Surveillance net found that your teenager is selling pot out of the basement?

Many RICO forfeitures are done without any person being charged with a 
crime. They take your property and make you fight to get it back.  This can 
cost tens of hundreds of thousands of dollars.  The burden of proof is on 
the party who's assets were seized.  Police get to keep the booty.  Talk 
about a perverse incentive. One caveat.  This article comes from a member 
of the line of thought of the so called "common law patriot movement".  I 
take no position on their ideology and do not support the fringe members 
tactics.  One must however acknowledge that the seeds of discontent are 
being sown in this country.  These people and the word "Patriot" have been 
demonized by the Federal Government.  Who would have ever thought that 
people who objected to a massive federal power structure which has usurped 
it's granted powers under the Constitution would be called crazies?  They 
may or may not have the right analysis or strategy.  They do see the 
problem.  So did the founders of our great Nation.  I hope we won't let 
power mongers such as Ashcroft or his mignon Ellison take away from our 
children the chance for a life unfettered by an all seeing and every 
meddling government.  God help America.  We need it.  Please help.

"Most [revolutions] have been [ended] by a subversion of that liberty [they 
were] intended to establish." --Thomas Jefferson to George Washington, 
1784. ME 4:218, Papers 7:106

"What institution is insusceptible of abuse in wicked hands?" --Thomas 
Jefferson to L. H. Girardin, 1815. ME 14:270

"Whensoever the General Government assumes undelegated powers, its acts are 
unauthoritative, void, and of no force." --Thomas Jefferson: Draft Kentucky 
Resolutions, 1798. ME 17:380

Churchill, Winston Leonard Spencer --On the eve of Britain's entry into 
World War II
"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed; 
if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; 
you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all odds 
against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be even a 
worse fate. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because 
it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

[...]

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