Politech mailing list archives
FC: BBB responds to politech subscriber on "copyright" linking claim
From: Declan McCullagh <declan () well com>
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 08:52:24 -0800
********** In response to: http://www.politechbot.com/p-01814.html Excerpt from BBB response:"Hyperlinking to BBB sites by businesses that are not members of the CBBB or BBB is not permitted."
********** From: STOBrien () wajones org Received: from smtp.wajones.org (fwuser () smtp wajones org [216.12.15.72]) by smtp.well.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA27262 for <declan () well com>; Fri, 16 Mar 2001 08:45:50 -0800 (PST) To: declan () well com, BCorr () NEAction org Subject: BBB Responds MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 11:45:48 -0500Thanks Brian, I am forwarding this to Declan McCullagh, of PoliTech, from whence my first post about this originated.
Sean ----- Forwarded by Sean T. O'Brien/staff/wajones on 03/16/2001 11:42 AM ----- Brian Corr <BCorr () NEAction org> 03/16/2001 11:25 AM Please respond to BCorr To: riders () topica com, orgwebmasters () mail-list com cc:Subject: RE: [Riders] FC: Better Business Bureau tries to ban links to its website
Here's what I got from the BBB. A bit more reasonable than it sounded from the BizMove press release.... Thanks, Brian >From: "Cherico, Holly" <hcherico () cbbb bbb org> >To: "'BCorr () NEAction org'" <BCorr () NEAction org> >Cc: "Zialcita, Beth" <bzialcita () cbbb bbb org> >Subject: CBBB Hyperlinking Policy >Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 10:59:50 -0500 >X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) > >To: Brian Corr, Director, Technical Support and Training, Northeast Action >30 Germania St. >Boston, MA 02130-2315 >617.541.0500 >617.541.0533 fax >www.neaction.org > >Dear Brian: Beth Zialcita forwarded your email and phone message to me for >response. Yes, the CBBB did contact BizMove to request removal of >hyperlinks to the BBB site and to request they remove copyrighted BBB >content, which they had framed within <<CBBB Hyperlink Statement.doc>> >their web site. However, BizMove's communications to the news media on this >issue contained inaccurate information, and did not accurately reflect what >we had requested. Our hyperlink policy and underlying reasoning is detailed >in the attached statement, which I've also reprinted below. Give me a call >if I can provide additional information. Thanks for contacting the CBBB for >our side of the story. > >Holly Cherico >VP-Communications >Council of Better Business Bureaus >phone: 703.247.9311 >email: hcherico () cbbb bbb org > >Statement by the Council of Better Business Bureaus (CBBB) on BBB >Hyperlinking Policy > >The press release recently issued by a web site business concerning the >CBBB's hyperlinking policy conveys false information. > >* The CBBB permits and encourage hyperlinks to its web sites >(www.bbb.org > and www.bbbonline.org) from entities that are information sources or >public service-oriented, such as news media organizations, government >agencies and search engines. Such sites may hyperlink to BBB web sites >without prior approval. In addition, commonly known consumer and/or business >information sources (like Chambers of Commerce or the AARP), online >directory distributors, Internet portals and legitimate educational >institutions and trade associations may also link to BBB sites with advance >approval. > >* For-profit web sites that market or sell products require careful >evaluation before the CBBB can permit their use of the BBB name in a >hyperlink or by any other means. The BBB is a unique organization, with a >business ethics focus. Through a 90-year reputation for credibility and >impartiality, consumers have come to know the BBB and trust its role in >upholding fairness in the marketplace. When consumers see the BBB name on a >business web site, they typically assume that the business has met BBB >standards or is somehow approved by the BBB. This was the case with the web >site at issue, which sports numerous BBB hyperlinks and references in close >proximity to its advertised products, and also frames BBB web site content >on its site. A consumer, who was confused as to the web site's BBB >membership, contacted the CBBB. > >* The BBB system has a use of name and logo policy for businesses in >the traditional and online marketplaces; there was a clear need to clarify >this policy with regard to use of the BBB name or trustmarks in hyperlinks. >Since 1995, when the first BBB central site was launched, businesses have >requested hyperlink permission, and consumers have asked for clarification >regarding BBB hyperlinks and references that appear on various sites. > > CBBB policy permits businesses that have committed to abide >by BBB membership standards to hyperlink to information sections of the CBBB >or BBB web sites under certain parameters. That's because the BBB knows >that such businesses have a satisfactory report, will promptly respond to >customer disputes, and have committed to uphold truthful advertising and >other business standards. > > Hyperlinking to BBB sites by businesses that are not members >of the CBBB or BBB is not permitted. Consumers are not well served when a >web site creates confusion regarding its affiliation with the BBB through >inappropriate use of our name (the hyperlinks in question do use the BBB >name). > >* When advised by an Internet user or BBB staff person that a >non-member is using the BBB name on its site, the CBBB or relevant BBB >contacts the business. Most businesses remove the BBB hyperlinks, when >requested. Upstanding businesses do not want to mislead consumers, and do >not seek to trade unfairly on the BBB name or credibility to sell their >products. > >* The CBBB is not willing to compromise the long-term interests of the >online marketplace for the sake of increasing traffic to BBB web sites. The >CBBB agrees that the Internet is meant to be consumer-friendly; supports >hyperlinks as a valuable tool for Internet users, when not misleading in >nature; and operates self-regulation programs to foster a safe, successful >online marketplace. One of the first consumer service organizations to >develop a web site, the CBBB has continued to expand the volume of BBB >information and services available through the Internet. It doesn't serve >the long-term interests of the online marketplace, however, to have >fraudulent advertisers, scam artists, or less-than-ethical businesses >trading on the BBB's credibility to sell products online. The BBB system >will continue to protect the value of the BBB name in the traditional and >online marketplaces. > >On the issue of copyrighted materials, it is common courtesy and good >business practice to request permission from a copyright owner before >reproducing content from that owner's web site. To do otherwise may amount >to a copyright violation, depending on the circumstances. The owner of the >site in question did not request nor receive permission of the CBBB to place >BBB site content within the confines of his site. Depending on the point of >entry to the site in question, visitors can find content from the BBB site >(actual pages from the BBB web site, including the online complaint form, >directory of BBBs, and consumer and business educational materials) framed >within that site, with a URL related to the business owner's site. This is >misleading and can lead to confusion on the part of the web site visitor as >to who generated, owns and is responsible for that content, and assumption >that display of the BBB pages and content is affiliated with or approved by >the BBB. > ># # # At 07:26 AM 3/16/01 -0800, stobrien () wajones org wrote: >I cannot believe nobody has responded to this, so here goes: > >Ellery's concern reflects some of the sentiments expressed in a recent >news item in PC Magazine. Basically, that Webmasters should not be proud >of large numbers of hits/visitors, especially if it crashes a site. >However, I believe this commentary was relevant to ecommerce sites, not to >information sites like most of us are involved with. Lots of visitors >clogging up an ecommerce site and not buying things makes the experience >less enjoyable to the buyers on the site. > >In the case of an information site the more visitors the better (I am not >going to get into the technical details of the accuracy of statistics, >that is a rant for another day). If you are taking the time and spending >the money to create a site that you think provides good and worthwhile >information to the Web public, then it is incumbent upon you to make that >information available to the largest possible audience. The cost of an >industrial strength web hosting solution can be as little as $20/month. >Everyone with a web site needs to think about their PR strategy. If you >know you are going to be on the news or in a major publication, plan for >that, even if it costs you some money, the ill-will generated by a slow or >crashing site will not serve your organization's mission well, and the >good will and information distribution function of lots of visitors to a >well-designed, fast, and robust site and hosting solution is worth every >penny for the education provided the web public about your mission. > >The Better Business Bureau's concern was not about crashing their site, >but that linking to their site exists violates their copyright. This is a >concept I can hardly understand. For example, is it wrong for me to >verbally tell someone I just read a really great book and tell them the >title of the book? That title has a copyright and is someone else's >intellectual property. Suppose I read something on the BBB Web site, which >I can no longer find because, according to their reasoning, it should not >be linked to from search engines, that a certain company has a good/bad >reputation. Can I share that information, if not, can I tell people the >URL for the BBB orally? > >The BBB's second concern was that links to them imply some sort of a >relationship between the linker and the linkee. (What Internet rock have >their lawyers been hiding under to have this idea? This has never been the >case on the Web.) I understand the idea of it being polite to ask if you >can link to other sites, but I also find it absurd. We are often asked >about links to our site, we say yes even if it is a group we do not agree >with because 1) we cannot stop them, 2) we want people to come to the >site, even if they arrive from a site that is dedicated to the opposite >position, maybe we can convince them that we are right, and 3) we do not >want to spend our precious Web development time chasing down permission >from others to link to their site. This could take a lot of time, we have >links to several hundred organizations on our Web site. > >In the specific case of the BBB the course of action they should have >taken/should pursue is to ask people to include in the text around their >link that a link to the BBB does not imply a relationship between the two >sites and that the information on the BBB site is copyrighted by the BBB >and users should check with the BBB regarding appropriate use. This is >cumbersome, but allows people to find the BBB and does not generate ill >will from 9700 links to www.bbb.org (according to Google--this does not >mean 9700 sites, but 9700 links to www.bbb.org on the part of the web >Google has indexed). Related to this, it is wise for webmasters to include >text somewhere on their site along the lines of: "XYZ Organization >provides hyperlinks to many other web sites operated by a >other organizations. Links to other sites are merely for information and >in no way imply endorsement or control of the content of the sites linked >to. Our privacy policies do not apply to these linked sites." > >I hope this perspective helps. I welcome further debate. > >Sean > > > > > >Ellery July <ejuly () nwaf org> >03/15/2001 09:45 AM >Please respond to ejuly > > > To: riders () topica com, orgwebmasters () mail-list com > cc: > Subject: RE: [Riders] FC: Better Business Bureau tries to > ban links to its website > >I understand the BBB concerns. Having links to your site puts a lot of >pressure on your system. > >I consulted with a non-profit organization which have had their web >servers >crash because a local news program gave out their web address. It became >like a DoS attack and people complained to them when they could not access >the site. They went from about 6500 hits a month to 11,300 hits the hour >before the web server crashed. Little did anyone know that they were >hosting >the site on a 256k DSL line. They also temporarily lost the ability to get >and send email. > >The organization did move its web site to a hosting service and that >increased their costs. > >Having also worked with people at First Call for Help and talked with >people >at crisis lines they will tell you that if a story is done on TV or radio >and their number is given out they get a rush of calls in a short people >of >time. If they are not prepared people may not be served well. > >We have never denied anyone from creating a link to our site but we do let >them know that we host our own web site give them our specs. > >Whenever I create a link to another organization, I always ask. It is the >polite thing to do. > >ellery july >Technical Lead >Northwest Area Foundation >332 Minnesota >E -1201 >St. Paul, MN 55101 >p 651-225-3895 >f 651-225-7695 > > >-----Original Message----- >From: stobrien () wajones org [mailto:stobrien () wajones org] >Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2001 3:10 PM >To: riders () topica com; orgwebmasters () mail-list com >Subject: [Riders] FC: Better Business Bureau tries to ban links to its >website > > > ----- Forwarded by Sean T. O'Brien/staff/wajones on 03/14/2001 04:07 PM >----- > >If the below message is accurate, it's part of a disturbing trend that >I've >been chronicling for a while. The Better Business Bureau appears to be >acting like a bully, and not a particularly bright one at that. > >Everyone from news organizations to search engines relies on unapproved >linking to inform their audience and stay in business. Critics use links >to >identify companies or groups that should be the target of boycotts. >Companies link to competitors, customers, and suppliers. Trying to claim >copyright in your URL shows not just a lack of legal clue, but an absence >of Net-savvy. > >The U.S. Copyright Office says (37 C.F.R. 202.1) works "not subject to >copyright" include "words and short phrases such as names, titles, and >slogans." (http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfr-retrieve.html#page1) >Presumably that would apply to URLs as well. > >For background: >http://www.politechbot.com/p-01589.html (news sites try to charge for links) >http://www.politechbot.com/p-01185.html (journalists and linking) >http://www.politechbot.com/p-01667.html (decss and linking) > >I invite the BBB to clarify its position. > >-Declan > >********* > > >From: "Meir Liraz" <meir () bizmove com> > >To: <macauthority () cobb com> > >Subject: The BBB claims links on other sites pointing to its Website are > >copyrighted > >Sender: "Meir Liraz" <meir () bizmove com> > >Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 20:52:49 +0200 > > > > > >FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > > >Attention: Business and Internet - editors > > > >------------------------------------- > >The Better Business Bureau demand that Websites remove > >links pointing to its Website claiming hyperlinks on > >other websites that point to BBB site are copyrighted > >------------------------------------- > > > >March 14, 2001: The Better Business Bureau Council adopted a new policy > >recently. It started approaching Websites across the Internet that >contains > >links pointing to its Website, demanding that all links pointing to BBB > >Websites be removed. The BBB bases its request on the premise that since > >the material on its Website is copyrighted, Websites need BBB permission >to > >present links pointing to its sites. Currently there are more than 10,000 > >Websites on the Internet that contain links pointing to the BBB website. > > > >BizMove.com is a privately owned business that maintains a Website >titled: > >"The Small Business Knowledge base" (http://www.bizmove.com). The > >BizMove.com website is geared towards small business owners and contains > >various guides and resources. One of the pages on the BizMove.com site > >contains links pointing to various pages on the BBB site (see: > >http://www.bizmove.com/BBB/index.htm). > > > >Earlier this week the BizMove.com webmaster received an email signed by > >Beth Zialcita from the Council of Better Business Bureaus, Inc., >demanding > >that BizMove.com remove all links on its site that point to the BBB > >Website. In the e-mail Mrs. Zialcita claims that since the links point to > >pages that contains BBB copyrighted material websites need its permission > >to present links pointing to BBB site (See below the full text of the BBB > >email). > > > >In a reply to the BBB email, Meir Liraz, President of BizMove.com >indicated > >his refusal to comply with the BBB request adding that BizMove.com will > >continue to present on its Website hyperlinks pointing to BBB sites. > > > >In regard to the BBB request, Mr. Liraz commented that he is willing to >go > >to court to protect the right of Websites to present hyperlinks pointing >to > >other sites without the need for permission to do so from the sites in > >question. > > > >Commenting on the new BBB stand, an Internet industry source said that if > >the courts adopt the BBB interpretation of the copyright law it means a > >major upset for some of the biggest players in the Internet business >arena. > >Names like Yahoo, Alta Vista, Excite and Lycos base their whole business > >models on presenting searchers with lists of links pointing to various > >websites, and they don't ask for permission from firms to present > >hyperlinks pointing to their sites. > > > >The Council of Better Business Bureaus is the umbrella organization for >the > >Better Business Bureau (BBB) system, which was founded in 1912 and is >today > >supported by 250,000 local business members nationwide. The BBB is also > >supported by more than 300 national corporations and by 132 local Better > >Business Bureaus. According to its mission statement the BBB is >"Dedicated > >to fostering fair and honest relationships between businesses and > >consumers, instilling consumer confidence and contributing to an ethical > >business environment" > > > >BizMove.com is a privately owned publishing firm. BizMove.com maintains >The > >Small Business Knowledge Base Website (http://www.bizmove.com) and is the > >publisher of the Managing a Small Business CD-ROM and various additional > >information products geared towards entrepreneurs and small business > >owners. > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------- > >Here's the text of the Email sent by the BBB to BizMove.com: > >------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: Zialcita, Beth [mailto:bzialcita () cbbb bbb org] > >Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 4:28 PM > > > >Subject: BBB links > > > >To the Webmaster: > > > >As a member of the Council of Better Business Bureaus' (the Council) >Legal > >Department, I am writing about your hyperlink to Better Business Bureau >web > >site located at http://www.bizmove.com/BBB/index.htm. > >I must ask that you delete immediately and remove any hyperlinks to our >web > >site. > > > >As a matter of policy, the Better Business Bureau does not sponsor, >endorse > >or approve companies. Your hyperlink to www.bbb.org may imply or mislead > >consumers into assuming that our organization supports your business or > >that there is a business relationship between us. In addition, materials > >from our web site is copyrighted, and, therefore, cannot be linked to > >without permission from the BBB. Presently, we are only allowing links >to > >government agencies, educational institution, news media and members of >the > >BBB. > > > >I trust the Council can rely upon your immediate removal of the Better > >Business Bureau hyperlink to our site from your site. > >Please contact me at bzialcita () cbbb bbb org if you have any further > >questions about this matter. > > > >Thank you for your cooperation. > > > >Beth Zialcita > >Online Trademark Enforcement Specialist > >Council of Better Business Bureaus, Inc. > >------------------------------------------------------- > > > >Contact Information: > > > >Beth Zialcita > >Online Trademark Enforcement Specialist > >Council of Better Business Bureaus, Inc. > >bzialcita () cbbb bbb org > > > >Meir Liraz > >President, BizMove.com > >meir () bizmove com > >------------------------------- >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >POLITECH -- Declan McCullagh's politics and technology mailing list >You may redistribute this message freely if it remains intact. >To subscribe, visit http://www.politechbot.com/info/subscribe.html >This message is archived at http://www.politechbot.com/ >------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >____________________________________________________________ >T O P I C A -- Learn More. 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