Penetration Testing mailing list archives
RE: Hacker Stories, Certs, vs Projects - the real problem?
From: "David Cross" <davidcross () Post-N-Track com>
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 11:22:50 -0500
I have to agree that I hastily chose words in my email. I agree that mastery was a poor word to insert. Do certs need to change and raise the bar? Probably. I have no issues with making the test harder or making people prove they can do anything. That's all well and good if it can be done. If there are constructive ideas I will gladly pass them on as I did when I discovered that CISSP had no mechanism for renewal credits for reporting CVEs. (Everyone can contribute to making their cert more valuable if they care to) * How can one give a hands-on test on managing the audit process? * How can one give a hands-on test person on writing a business continuity plan? (if they write one how do you know it's not plagiarized?) * How can one give a hands-on test on what authentication mechanism is best in a particular setting? (without using a written test?) * How can one give a hands-on test on what cryptographic algorithm is best in a particular setting? * How can one give a hands-on test on how HIPAA law applies to a claims clearinghouse? If you were a CISSP for example you may have a fuzzy recollection of that information tucked away in your brain and an idea of where to go to refresh your memory. If you are a CISSP and you also have done it before then you probably have a very bright recollection of what it takes. (leading back to my original point that experience plus a cert helps an employer know you have some knowledge... maybe not any more than a bachelors degree tells them that you are qualified to be a programmer but it's a bar by which you can be measured) Have I ever had issues with cert test questions and certs in general... yes! Actually I find it irritating to be asked questions about 1980s technology even if they are few and far between. It frustrates me to be quizzed on details of organge-book stuff when that is no longer the standard. It bugs me when certs have renewal requirements that include teaching a class but not writing security related freeware. But if you bring those things up they get addressed and it improves the cert for everyone thereafter which is why these kind of things need to be dealt with. The thing I take issue with is the damn boot-camp things or the study books that take someone off the street and guarantee that they will pass cert XYZ. I think those things are the REAL cert killers. People who put on those classes and print those books are the real problem in my opinion. That is probably why so many certs are changing to add renewal requirements or require additional investments in hours and contribution to the craft. So as long as there's no way to practically test a person to see if they can actually perform a real risk assessment or how to write a business continuity plan... At least it's less likely that many of the boot-camp variety of people were able to meet their renewal requirements. If there are some good ideas to keep boot-campers out of it altogether then I'm all for it. If someone has a formula for how a general knowledge of security and security processes can be tested with a hands-on test. I'm all ears. I can't imagine how running metasploit or nessus can prove you know how to hack. But maybe to some it can. If you add some arbitrary skill testing task versus skill testing question then you limit whatever you are testing to some pinpoint sub-set of a greater whole ultimately proving that you have the ability to take a test and also run nessus version X. So perhaps the real deal is to have a hands-on test for every piece of hardware/software (version) and break down certs into individual modules. Ex: cert XYZ - Linux/IPtables module, cert XYZ - tripwire module, cert XYZ - Certificate Practice Statement writing etc. at that point we have a Microsoft-like system where certs are an off-shoot of a product line instead of a spectrum of knowledge. This is a serious question for our industry as a whole. It probably does need to be solved before the value of all certs goes in the toilet. Let me know if you have any good ideas. Dave -----Original Message----- From: Wolf [mailto:wolfiroc () earthlink net] Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 9:28 PM To: Pete Herzog; David Cross Cc: Robert E. Lee; pen-test () securityfocus com Subject: Re: Hacker Stories, Certs, vs Projects - Was Re: Technitium MAC Address Changer v3.1 (FREEWARE) Hi David and Pete, I really take the statement "... mastery of all aspects of security" as a bit of a challenge as well as an insult to those who truly have mastered their craft, but do not have the CISSP. I do - as well as OPST, OPSA, IEM and IAM. Fact -not boasting or professing mastery. Too much comes down the road each day to profess mastery at all aspects of security. If there were so many masters out there, then we wouldn't have configuration management issues, patch management and implementation issues, and every system and network could be certified and accredited as being operationally secure. I know for a FACT that some CISSPs have little or no experience or understanding in the field, yet managed to take a damn good test! If the prereqs were checked or truly told, they never would have been eligible. Not a rant just something to think about the next time you claim mastery! -----Original Message-----
From: Pete Herzog <lists () isecom org> Sent: Jul 30, 2006 5:39 AM To: David Cross <davidcross () Post-N-Track com> Cc: "Robert E. Lee" <robert () dyadsecurity com>,
pen-test () securityfocus com
Subject: Re: Hacker Stories, Certs, vs Projects - Was Re: Technitium
MAC Address Changer v3.1 (FREEWARE)
Hi David,The CISSP credential is not a networking credential. It is a general security credential showing mastery of all aspects of security, not
an
in-depth knowledge of one. A CISSP would be expected to serve in anI think "mastery" includes capability and not just knowledge thereof.
To
master something means to be at the top of a craft. It means to know something deeply and to be able to apply that knowledge broadly. I disagree that a CISSP shows a mastery of all things security.advisory or audit capacity and not in a network engineer capacity.
The
Just broad knowledge of security best practices to apply broadly where
one
sees them is unhealthy to any organization.If a CISSP with no experience is applying for a networking job then shame on them. If you hire a CISSP for a networking job when they
have
no specific networking experience then shame on you.And yet they do all the time. Many of us know many CISSPs who didn't
have
the experience, were able to fudge it, and were able to get their certification without having any problem finding another CISSP vouch
for
them. Talking a solution does not show successful implementation of
one.
Credentials can only be looked at to strengthen the credibility of a person's resume, not to create credibility where this is no
experience.
Not true. Certification can provide those lacking experience to show ability and be an asset to an organization in that particular field. So
it
can show credibility where no experience exists. People already do this
now
looking to switch job descriptions, need to learn a specific aspect of
a
job, seek to enhance current ability, or to improve their marketability
for
new jobs.Either way if you are going to criticize things in public you should know what you are talking about or you will just point out to
everyone
that you don't know the industry as well as you think.I agree with that statement however I also think putting on
rose-colored
glasses does not make the current industry on-goings any rosier for
other
people who end up being the victims instead of the benefactors of
security.
-pete. -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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Current thread:
- RE: Hacker Stories, Certs, vs Projects - the real problem? David Cross (Jul 31)
- <Possible follow-ups>
- RE: Hacker Stories, Certs, vs Projects - the real problem? Hirsch, Adam (Jul 31)