Penetration Testing mailing list archives
Re: Whitespace in passwords
From: Tim <pand0ra.usa () gmail com>
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2005 12:01:15 -0600
It all about the math. Let's write it out, say you have a machine that runs 3,000,000 combinations per second (about a 1.6 GHz machine). In this example we will use the Windows LanMan Challange/Response (which is bad to begin with, but the main key in this is that it does not use a salt). 60 possible characters and the password is 7 characters long.(no spaces) 60^7 = 2,799,360,000,000 = 10.8 days (A-Z, 0-9, special) 86 possible characters and the password is 7 characters long.(no spaces) 86^7 = 34,792,782,221,696 = 134.23 days (A-Z, a-z, 0-9, special) 62 possible characters and the password is 8 characters long.(no spaces) 62^8 = 218,340,105,584,896 = 2.3 years (A-Z, 0-9, special) 86 possible characters and the password is 8 characters long.(no spaces) 86^8 = 2992179271065856 = 31.62 years (A-Z, a-z, 0-9, special) 36 possible characters and the password is 14 characters long. (no spaces) 36^14 = 6,140,942,214,464,815,497,216 combinations = 64,909,333 years (a-z, 0-9) 2bigbrown1dogs (throw some special characters in) We have 2 big brown dogs! (25 characters using numbers, upper and lower, and special cahracters, you do the math). Microsoft Windows supports up to ~250 characters for the passwords/phrases. The point here is that a 14 character all lowercase passphrase with numbers is millions of time more difficult that a 'strong' 8 character password with all sorts of characters. A space is just another character and don't believe that it will protect you from getting your password cracked (security through obsecurity?). Also, keep in mind that if you use a algo that has a salt and supports many characters you will be much better off. Instead of making things more complex for your users (which also increses the risk of them posting their password on a stick-it note) make the passphrase easy for them to remember. Side note: Disable LanMan on all Windows machines if you are not running any Windows 95/98/ME machines. It is there for backward compatability and is still enabled by default on Windows 2003 Servers. On 9/11/05, dave kleiman <dave () isecureu com> wrote:
They also do not have a lot of the Extended ASCII characters: http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/88/312263 Dave-----Original Message----- From: Steve.Cummings () barclayscapital com [mailto:Steve.Cummings () barclayscapital com] Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 12:54 To: AMeyers () msolgroup com; Anders.Thulin () tietoenator com; homegrown () bryanallott net; pen-test () securityfocus com Subject: Re: Whitespace in passwords Alt characters are also pretty cool Try alt 255 this is blank space -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Meyers <AMeyers () msolgroup com> To: Anders Thulin <Anders.Thulin () tietoenator com>; bryan allott <homegrown () bryanallott net>; pen-test () securityfocus com <pen-test () securityfocus com> Sent: Thu Sep 08 01:40:34 2005 Subject: RE: Whitespace in passwords I like pass phrases better because crackers like john and l0pht, by default, don't have white spaces in their list of characters. ------------------- Andrew Meyers Systems Engineer Managed Solution Email: ameyers () mssandiego com Phone: 619-220-0544 x115 Fax: 619-220-0599 http://www.mssandiego.com -----Original Message----- From: Anders Thulin [mailto:Anders.Thulin () tietoenator com] Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 3:17 AM To: bryan allott; pen-test () securityfocus com Subject: RE: Whitespace in passwordsFrom: bryan allott [mailto:homegrown () bryanallott net]to the misnomer "passWORD" rather than passPHRASE but it seems that [most?] people choose passes that dont contain whitespaces,Most people still stick to alphanumeric passwords, and most of those are passwords where the digits are placed at the end. Whitespace is probably not more special than any of the other 'specials' that appear on a standard keyboard. A problem is to know just what those are -- a look at a keyboard may lead a user to think the 'x' on the keypad is a different special character than the '*'.my main question, re security, is wether the whitespace made the password too vulnerable? [historically] and why this constraint is introduced in many systems..Tradition, probably. In environments where users are given fixed passwords that they can't change themselves, space belongs together with S58, O0, and Il1 to the characters that probably will be misunderstood, and so cause calls to helpdesk. Anything that is likely to cause a help-desk call is a no-no in large environments. Another aspect is regularity of user interface design: should space be treated as significant when it appears first and last in a string in general, say a Search field in a text editor or a From- field in an e-mail program? If not, spaces first and last in passwords will be assumed to be insignificant as well -- and so become another source for helpdesk complaints. Regularity pays off. [but then, ifmyth- why propogate it?]Probably also a case that password are seldom documented in detail, and few people are willing to sit down to find out details by experiment. (Windows NT hashes use the OEM character set ... which is another source of documentation problems.) So instructions for password construction tend to avoid mentioning characters that might be troublesome, even though there are some important things to know. For instance, dead accent keys (on my kbd ^ is one) usually don't change the base character in a password, so 'pass' and 'pâss' may produce the same password hash. The most useful character to have in a reasonably modern Windows password is EUR (Alt-Gr E on my kbd.) I suspect the reason why is well known -- if not, I'll leave it as an exercize. I'm sure there are similar 'oddities' on other password situations.i'm thinking that whitespaces [if yr system can handle them, and why not?] would add another measure of complexity in cracking pwds?Of course they do. But ... if you alredy have an adequate password protection -- say, accounts are locked out after 25 failed attempts per day regardless of source -- the extra complexity doesn't add much protection. (If you have the password hashes, security has already failed, and any attempt to add a last line of defense in the form of password complexity is misguided: it's only a question of time before the passwords are discovered, and that time should not be left to users to ensure.) Anders Thulin anders.thulin () tietoenator com 040-661 50 63 TietoEnator Telecom & Media AB, Box 85, SE-201 20 Malmö -------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------- Audit your website security with Acunetix Web Vulnerability Scanner: Hackers are concentrating their efforts on attacking applications on your website. Up to 75% of cyber attacks are launched on shopping carts, forms, login pages, dynamic content etc. Firewalls, SSL and locked-down servers are futile against web application hacking. Check your website for vulnerabilities to SQL injection, Cross site scripting and other web attacks before hackers do! Download Trial at: http://www.securityfocus.com/sponsor/pen-test_050831 -------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------- -------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------- Audit your website security with Acunetix Web Vulnerability Scanner: Hackers are concentrating their efforts on attacking applications on your website. Up to 75% of cyber attacks are launched on shopping carts, forms, login pages, dynamic content etc. Firewalls, SSL and locked-down servers are futile against web application hacking. Check your website for vulnerabilities to SQL injection, Cross site scripting and other web attacks before hackers do! Download Trial at: http://www.securityfocus.com/sponsor/pen-test_050831 -------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------- -------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- For more information about Barclays Capital, please visit our web site at http://www.barcap.com. Internet communications are not secure and therefore the Barclays Group does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message. Although the Barclays Group operates anti-virus programmes, it does not accept responsibility for any damage whatsoever that is caused by viruses being passed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the Barclays Group. Replies to this email may be monitored by the Barclays Group for operational or business reasons. -------------------------------------------------------------- ---------- -------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------- Audit your website security with Acunetix Web Vulnerability Scanner: Hackers are concentrating their efforts on attacking applications on your website. Up to 75% of cyber attacks are launched on shopping carts, forms, login pages, dynamic content etc. Firewalls, SSL and locked-down servers are futile against web application hacking. Check your website for vulnerabilities to SQL injection, Cross site scripting and other web attacks before hackers do! Download Trial at: http://www.securityfocus.com/sponsor/pen-test_050831 -------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Audit your website security with Acunetix Web Vulnerability Scanner: Hackers are concentrating their efforts on attacking applications on your website. Up to 75% of cyber attacks are launched on shopping carts, forms, login pages, dynamic content etc. Firewalls, SSL and locked-down servers are futile against web application hacking. Check your website for vulnerabilities to SQL injection, Cross site scripting and other web attacks before hackers do! Download Trial at: http://www.securityfocus.com/sponsor/pen-test_050831 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Tim Van Cleave ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Audit your website security with Acunetix Web Vulnerability Scanner: Hackers are concentrating their efforts on attacking applications on your website. Up to 75% of cyber attacks are launched on shopping carts, forms, login pages, dynamic content etc. Firewalls, SSL and locked-down servers are futile against web application hacking. Check your website for vulnerabilities to SQL injection, Cross site scripting and other web attacks before hackers do! Download Trial at: http://www.securityfocus.com/sponsor/pen-test_050831 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Current thread:
- RE: Whitespace in passwords Anders Thulin (Sep 07)
- RE: Whitespace in passwords Peter Parker (Sep 11)
- Re: Whitespace in passwords Paul Robertson (Sep 16)
- Re: Whitespace in passwords R. DuFresne (Sep 19)
- Re: Whitespace in passwords Paul Robertson (Sep 16)
- <Possible follow-ups>
- RE: Whitespace in passwords Andrew Meyers (Sep 08)
- Re: Whitespace in passwords Steve.Cummings (Sep 11)
- RE: Whitespace in passwords dave kleiman (Sep 12)
- Re: Whitespace in passwords Tim (Sep 14)
- RE: Whitespace in passwords dave kleiman (Sep 12)
- RE: Whitespace in passwords Craig Wright (Sep 14)
- RE: Whitespace in passwords Craig Wright (Sep 18)
- RE: Whitespace in passwords dave kleiman (Sep 19)
- Re: Whitespace in passwords Stephen J. Smoogen (Sep 19)
- RE: Whitespace in passwords Craig Wright (Sep 19)
- RE: Whitespace in passwords Craig Wright (Sep 19)
- RE: Whitespace in passwords dave kleiman (Sep 19)
- RE: Whitespace in passwords Bryan McAninch (Sep 19)
- Re: Whitespace in passwords Tim (Sep 19)
- RE: Whitespace in passwords Craig Wright (Sep 20)
(Thread continues...)
- RE: Whitespace in passwords Peter Parker (Sep 11)