Re: CenturyLink Fiber Latency Issues (Seattle, WA)

[Neel Chauhan <neel () neelc org>]

If I wanted a DIA, Comcast's "Gigabit Pro" is much cheaper than a 
CenturyLink DIA.

But this happens even if I don't use most of my connection, even if I 
only use a fraction of it.

In reality, I don't usually run BitTorrent, I just used it to stimulate 
the packet loss to show a technician the issue. I normally download ISOs 
via HTTP.

I do run Tor relays normally, but an big issue being on the west coast 
is getting Tor to see all my bandwidth. Tor has things called "bandwidth 
scanners", but because of the way they're designed, measuring a Tor 
relay bandwidth in Seattle or LA would result in lower values than in 
NYC or Boston as you'd be burdened by higher latency.

I'm a "Tor Core" contributor (not as active as I used to be) and even I 
can say the bandwidth scanners SUCK.

-Neel

On 2021-11-08 08:35, Tim Burke wrote:
> Agreed with this... if anything, all of the repeated abuse causing
> poor performance for neighbors could eventually result in termination
> of service. I'm sure CenturyLink would love to sell OP a DIA that they
> can use to run Tor and P2P to their heart's content.
>
> -------------------------
>
> From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+tim=mid.net () nanog org> on behalf of Eric
> Kuhnke <eric.kuhnke () gmail com>
> Sent: Saturday, November 6, 2021 1:19:17 PM
> To: Neel Chauhan; nanog () nanog org list
> Subject: Re: CenturyLink Fiber Latency Issues (Seattle, WA)
>
> Respectfully, if you start broaching topics like suing your
> residential ISP because a "best effort" no SLA last mile GPON service
> doesn't meet the same performance as a 1GbE active-E symmetric 1310/LR
> hand off for a server in a datacenter, the most likely thing you're
> going to get is dropped by the ISP entirely.
>
> I know that's what I would recommend if I were your ISP and you
> threatened lawsuits at my customer service representatives. "Sorry,
> but as of $DATE_30_DAYS_IN_FUTURE we will no longer be able to meet
> your needs and will discontinue service and billing for
> $YOUR_ACCOUNT_NUMBER".
>
> On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 2:59 PM Neel Chauhan <neel () neelc org> wrote:
>
> > My OPNsense box has a really large NAT table, more than there are
> > IPv4
> > ports, presumably due to the way FreeBSD's pf works. CenturyLink's
> > routers are worse in this regard since NAT tables are small.
> >
> > Even if I were to run Tor on my CenturyLink connection, my neighbors
> > are
> > affected as well. When I was running Tor at "full speed" with these
> > spikes, neighbors had truck rolls.
> >
> > I have ordered Verizon "LTE Home" as a temporary "workaround",
> > namely to
> > move my Wi-Fi traffic to it while I restart Tor. The reason for this
> > is
> > to force neighbors to put in repair tickets to force a GPON capacity
> >
> > increase.
> >
> > It's not nice to my neighbors, but I don't **realy** have another
> > option
> > (even running Tor I don't want to make it too unbearablel for
> > neighbors). Maybe the other options are to (a) pay $329/mo for
> > Comcast
> > Gigabit Pro and get stuck in a 2-year contract and a steep install
> > fee
> > or (b) litigate that I could lose since I'm not a lawyer and don't
> > have
> > a J.D. from Harvard Law School specializing in telecom law, both
> > which
> > are impractical and expensive.
> >
> > I was about to sue CenturyLink in small claims, but instead decided
> > to
> > get Verizon LTE Home for 2 months while CenturyLink "fixes" their
> > fiber
> > network while restarting Tor there. Have the neighbors put in
> > service
> > requests to force CL to fix their network, but don't put in a
> > request
> > myself so the "solution" won't be to blame me.
> >
> > While I may have to worry about an ETF with LTE Home, it's cheaper
> > than
> > Gigabit Pro, and of $300 for two months including ETF is still
> > cheaper
> > than $329/mo for two years.
> >
> > It's a gamble but may pay off.
> >
> > -Neel
> >
> > On 2021-11-03 07:00, TJ Trout wrote:
> > > I second this, most best effort Broadband cpe equipment will choke
> > > with lots of concurrent connections
> > >
> > > On Tue, Nov 2, 2021, 8:25 PM P C <pc50000 () gmail com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > If this is connection count related only, It is most likely an
> > issue
> > > > with the CPE (router), NAT table, or similar.
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Nov 2, 2021 at 8:21 AM Neel Chauhan <neel () neelc org>
> > wrote:
> > > > > I tried that back in September, it didn't work. It doesn't
> > happen
> > > > > on my
> > > > > hop but the one after that. Even a second GPON connection shows
> > > > > the
> > > > > issues if one is running the offending traffic.
> > > > >
> > > > > The issue occurs even if I'm using 50 Mbps out of my 940.
> > > > >
> > > > > It may be bufferbloat on CL's side but they keep denying the
> > > > > issue.
> > > > >
> > > > > I guess I'll have to break the bank and get Comcast Gigabit Pro.
> > > > >
> > > > > CenturyLink should just get bought out by another telco, like
> > how
> > > > > Cablevision got bought by Altice.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Neel
> > > > >
> > > > > On 2021-11-01 20:52, Ryan Hamel wrote:
> > > > > > Neel,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sounds like buffer bloat.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Run a speed test, whatever is your maximum for your download
> > and
> > > > > upload
> > > > > > take
> > > > > > 10% away from it, and setup traffic shaping in OPNsense
> > > > > > (https://docs.opnsense.org/manual/shaping.html) with those
> > > > > values. If
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > issue goes away, then you're exceeding the buffer of
> > > > > CenturyLink's
> > > > > > device
> > > > > > with the bursts of traffic.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ryan
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+ryan=rkhtech.org () nanog org> On
> > Behalf
> > > > > Of
> > > > > > Neel
> > > > > > Chauhan
> > > > > > Sent: Monday, November 1, 2021 6:44 PM
> > > > > > To: nanog () nanog org
> > > > > > Subject: CenturyLink Fiber Latency Issues (Seattle, WA)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hi NANOG Mailing List,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't know if any of you work at CenturyLink/Lumen, very less
> > > > > on
> > > > > > their
> > > > > > Fiber network in Seattle, WA. However, here's my story.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If I attempt to run certain applications that use 1000, or
> > 10000
> > > > > TCP
> > > > > > connections, I get latency spikes. It is based on how many
> > > > > connections,
> > > > > > but
> > > > > > also how much bandwidth is used. This means certain things like
> > > > > Tor
> > > > > > relays
> > > > > > are off limits to me (which I wish to run).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On an idle connection, the PingPlotter outputs look like this:
> > > > > > https://centurylinklatencyissues.com/image-000.png [1]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If I attempt to run BitTorrent with 1000 connections in Deluge,
> > > > > > PingPlotter
> > > > > > looks like this:
> > > > > > https://centurylinklatencyissues.com/image-002.png [2]
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Getting support, or even executive contacts to admit the issue
> > > > > hasn't
> > > > > > worked. They all love to blame my equipment or applications,
> > > > > when CL
> > > > > > routers
> > > > > > also show the issue when I run the same things whereas my same
> > > > > exact
> > > > > > OPNsense box on Google Fiber Webpass running Tor at another
> > > > > address had
> > > > > > no
> > > > > > issues whatsoever, and I can ping other Tor relays on
> > > > > CenturyLink AS209
> > > > > > just
> > > > > > fine (from a VPS).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The most competent person I dealt with was actually one tech.
> > He
> > > > > told
> > > > > > me
> > > > > > there was "capacity issues" in our neighborhood, and that's the
> > > > > reason
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > the issues. However, nothing was done about it afterwards, I'm
> > > > > guessing
> > > > > > since I turned off my Tor relay after the visit to avoid
> > > > > complaints
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > family members.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On an AT&T forum, people have said GPON gives latency
> > > > > spikes/packet
> > > > > > loss on
> > > > > > congestion:
> https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r33242889-How-rare-is-GPON-XGSPON-saturatio
> > [3]
> > > > > > n
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The capacity managers in Seattle are literally dragging their
> > > > > feet:
> > > > > > it's
> > > > > > 100x worse than AT&T's 802.1X. I know AT&T and CenturyLink
> > don't
> > > > > > compete,
> > > > > > but if I had to choose between AT&T Fiber and CenturyLink, I'll
> > > > > take
> > > > > > AT&T in
> > > > > > a heartbeat, no ifs, no buts, even if I have to use AT&T's
> > > > > crappy
> > > > > > router
> > > > > > instead of my OPNsense box.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Going back, do any of you who work at CenturyLink/Lumen can get
> > > > > me to
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > right people, hopefully the capacity managers in Seattle?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I could go with Comcast, but it's either (a) 35 Mbps uploads or
> > > > > (b)
> > > > > > $329/mo
> > > > > > for "Gigabit Pro" with a 2-year contract and a steep install
> > > > > fee. I am
> > > > > > seriously considering Gigabit Pro even if it breaks the bank,
> > > > > but hope
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > won't have to go there.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't need 2 Gbps and would rather pay $65 than $329. 300-500
> > > > > Mbps
> > > > > > uploads
> > > > > > when I need it is the sweet spot for me (even without Tor)
> > which
> > > > > CL
> > > > > > GPON
> > > > > > should easily handle without a sweat. I also don't exactly
> > > > > > **trust** Comcast, they're a horrible company in many metrics,
> > > > > but in
> > > > > > some
> > > > > > ways Comcast is more competent than CenturyLink.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Best,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Neel Chauhan
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1] https://centurylinklatencyissues.com/image-000.png
> [2] https://centurylinklatencyissues.com/image-002.png
> [3] 
> https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r33242889-How-rare-is-GPON-XGSPON-saturatio