nanog mailing list archives
RE: NANOG Digest, Vol 89, Issue 24
From: Alex Hardie <Alex.Hardie () nominum com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 14:31:25 +0000
Not to inject more confusion - but GPS and NTP are noted in the thread... but not PTP (IEEE1588)? alex hardie | +1 404 229 7635 | www.nominum.com -----Original Message----- From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces () nanog org] On Behalf Of nanog-request () nanog org Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 8:00 AM To: nanog () nanog org Subject: NANOG Digest, Vol 89, Issue 24 Send NANOG mailing list submissions to nanog () nanog org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mailman.nanog.org/mailman/listinfo/nanog or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to nanog-request () nanog org You can reach the person managing the list at nanog-owner () nanog org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of NANOG digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND (Tony Finch) 2. Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND (Stephane Bortzmeyer) 3. Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND (Bjoern A. Zeeb) 4. Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND (Stephane Bortzmeyer) 5. Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND (Tony Finch) 6. Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND (Alan Buxey) 7. Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND (Saku Ytti) 8. Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND (Randy Bush) 9. Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND (shawn wilson) 10. Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND (Tony Finch) 11. Re: Data Center Network Monitoring with TAPs (Rafael Possamai) 12. Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND (Harlan Stenn) 13. Facebook contact, images issues in IL/WI (David Sovereen) 14. Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND (Marshall Eubanks) 15. Residential VSAT experiences? (Nicholas Oas) 16. Core alignment fusion splicers (Peter Kranz) 17. Re: Core alignment fusion splicers (Mel Beckman) 18. AW: Core alignment fusion splicers (J?rgen Jaritsch) 19. Re: Residential VSAT experiences? (William Herrin) 20. Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND (Doug Barton) 21. Re: Residential VSAT experiences? (Mike Lyon) 22. Re: Residential VSAT experiences? (Fred Baker (fred)) 23. Re: Residential VSAT experiences? (Dovid Bender) 24. Re: Residential VSAT experiences? (Mike Lyon) 25. Re: Residential VSAT experiences? (Hugo Slabbert) 26. Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND (Harlan Stenn) 27. Re: Residential VSAT experiences? (Mike Hale) 28. Re: Residential VSAT experiences? (Michael Conlen) 29. Re: Residential VSAT experiences? (Scott Weeks) 30. Fwd: Residential VSAT experiences? (Alfred Olton) 31. Re: Residential VSAT experiences? (Lyndon Nerenberg) 32. Re: Residential VSAT experiences? (TR Shaw) 33. Re: Residential VSAT experiences? (Dave Crocker) 34. Re: Residential VSAT experiences? (Mikael Abrahamsson) 35. Re: Residential VSAT experiences? (Dave Taht) 36. Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND (Mel Beckman) 37. Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND (Harlan Stenn) 38. Re: Residential VSAT experiences? (Tim Franklin) 39. Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND (Mel Beckman) 40. Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND (Nick Hilliard) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 13:15:41 +0100 From: Tony Finch <dot () dotat at> To: Harlan Stenn <stenn () ntp org> Cc: Saku Ytti <saku () ytti fi>, nanog () nanog org Subject: Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND Message-ID: <alpine.LSU.2.00.1506221312330.3102 () hermes-1 csi cam ac uk> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Harlan Stenn <stenn () ntp org> wrote:
It's a problem with POSIX, not UTC. UTC is monotonic.
The problems are that UTC is unpredictable, and it breaks the standard labelling of points in time that was used for hundreds (arguably thousands) of years before 1972. Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch <dot () dotat at> http://dotat.at/ Irish Sea: Northwesterly 4 or 5, occasionally 6 at first, becoming variable 4. Slight or moderate. Mainly fair. Good. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 14:27:18 +0200 From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer () nic fr> To: Tony Finch <dot () dotat at> Cc: Harlan Stenn <stenn () ntp org>, nanog () nanog org Subject: Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND Message-ID: <20150622122718.GA10690 () nic fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 01:15:41PM +0100, Tony Finch <dot () dotat at> wrote a message of 15 lines which said:
The problems are that UTC is unpredictable,
That's because the earth rotation is unpredictable. Any time based on this buggy planet's movements will be unpredictable. Let's patch it now! ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 12:38:28 +0000 From: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" <bzeeb-lists () lists zabbadoz net> To: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer () nic fr> Cc: Tony Finch <dot () dotat at>, nanog () nanog org Subject: Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND Message-ID: <8C40413B-B22C-4BCE-85D2-B4F93A233628 () lists zabbadoz net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On 22 Jun 2015, at 12:27 , Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer () nic fr> wrote: On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 01:15:41PM +0100, Tony Finch <dot () dotat at> wrote a message of 15 lines which said:The problems are that UTC is unpredictable,That's because the earth rotation is unpredictable. Any time based on this buggy planet's movements will be unpredictable. Let's patch it now!
So we need a new center of the universe and switch to stardate and thus solve the 32bit UNIX time problem for real this
time?
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 14:44:15 +0200
From: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer () nic fr>
To: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" <bzeeb-lists () lists zabbadoz net>
Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer () nic fr>, Tony Finch
<dot () dotat at>, nanog () nanog org
Subject: Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND
Message-ID: <20150622124415.GA12276 () nic fr>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 12:38:28PM +0000,
Bjoern A. Zeeb <bzeeb-lists () lists zabbadoz net> wrote
a message of 17 lines which said:
So we need a new center of the universe and switch to stardate and thus solve the 32bit UNIX time problem for real this time?
Or simply use TAI which is the obvious time reference for Internet
devices. Using UTC in routers is madness. Routers and Internet servers
should use TAI internally and use UTC only when communicating with
humans (the inferior life form which crawls on the Earth surface and
cares about things like whether the sun is high at noon, for outside
picnics).
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 13:55:20 +0100
From: Tony Finch <dot () dotat at>
To: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer () nic fr>
Cc: nanog () nanog org
Subject: Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND
Message-ID:
<alpine.LSU.2.00.1506221353350.32296 () hermes-1 csi cam ac uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer () nic fr> wrote:
That's because the earth rotation is unpredictable. Any time based on this buggy planet's movements will be unpredictable. Let's patch it now!
http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2015-May/022280.html http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2015-May/022281.html http://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2015-May/022282.html Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch <dot () dotat at> http://dotat.at/ Northwest Faeroes, Southeast Iceland: Northeasterly 3 or 4. Moderate, becoming mainly slight. Mainly fair. Good, occasionally poor in Southeast Iceland. ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 12:56:44 +0000 From: Alan Buxey <A.L.M.Buxey () lboro ac uk> To: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" <bzeeb-lists () lists zabbadoz net>, Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer () nic fr> Cc: "nanog () nanog org" <nanog () nanog org> Subject: Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND Message-ID: <AM3PR04MB35631C949345BC1CBCFC0C1A7A10 () AM3PR04MB356 eurprd04 prod outlook com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I do feel sorry for you unix/linux users having a problem in year 2038.... fortunately I get another ~ 8 years... my Amiga gets its first big problem in 2046 ;-) http://web.archive.org/web/19981203142814/http://www.amiga.com/092098-y2k.html alan PS if i get to see the 2078 issue I'll be old enough to fuss about other things than a 2 digit date display..and I'm sure if I'm around until 7 February, 2114, 06:28:16 I'll have more to worry about than an old Amiga finally reaching the end of its useful life...unless its actually driving my life support system! ;-) ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 16:23:11 +0300 From: Saku Ytti <saku () ytti fi> To: nanog () nanog org Subject: Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND Message-ID: <20150622132311.GA14699 () pob ytti fi> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On (2015-06-22 14:44 +0200), Stephane Bortzmeyer wrote:
Or simply use TAI which is the obvious time reference for Internet devices. Using UTC in routers is madness. Routers and Internet servers should use TAI internally and use UTC only when communicating with humans (the inferior life form which crawls on the Earth surface and cares about things like whether the sun is high at noon, for outside picnics).
I couldn't agree more. But out of curiosity does anyone have scoop why TAI
exists? I believe GPSTIME predates it, which appears analogous to TAI.
--
++ytti
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 23:17:52 +0900
From: Randy Bush <randy () psg com>
To: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer () nic fr>
Cc: North American Network Operators' Group <nanog () nanog org>
Subject: Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND
Message-ID: <m2616fddyn.wl%randy () psg com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
we can just turn the internet off for an hour until the dust settles.
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 14:17:53 +0000
From: shawn wilson <ag4ve.us () gmail com>
To: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer () nic fr>, Tony Finch <dot () dotat at>
Cc: nanog () nanog org
Subject: Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND
Message-ID:
<CAH_OBifuB5g52skBDm-Huj69-fxTkPYORSMW_qe-os6Gis8+Rw () mail gmail com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
On Mon, Jun 22, 2015, 08:29 Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer () nic fr> wrote:
On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 01:15:41PM +0100, Tony Finch <dot () dotat at> wrote a message of 15 lines which said:The problems are that UTC is unpredictable,That's because the earth rotation is unpredictable. Any time based on this buggy planet's movements will be unpredictable. Let's patch it now! So, what we should do is make clocks move. 99999 slower half of the year
(and then speed back up) so that we're really in line with earth's
rotational time. I mean we've got the computers to do it (I think most RTC
only go down to thousandths so it'll still need a little skewing but I'm
sure we'll manage).
Ps - if anyone actually does this, I'm going postal.
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:27:42 +0100
From: Tony Finch <dot () dotat at>
To: shawn wilson <ag4ve.us () gmail com>
Cc: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer () nic fr>, nanog () nanog org
Subject: Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND
Message-ID:
<alpine.LSU.2.00.1506221524480.3102 () hermes-1 csi cam ac uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
shawn wilson <ag4ve.us () gmail com> wrote:
So, what we should do is make clocks move. 99999 slower half of the year (and then speed back up) so that we're really in line with earth's rotational time.
That's how UTC worked in the 1960s. ftp://maia.usno.navy.mil/ser7/tai-utc.dat It causes problems for systems that have a tight coupling between time and frequency - broadcast, cellular, etc. Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch <dot () dotat at> http://dotat.at/ Fair Isle, Southeast Faeroes: Northeasterly 5 or 6 backing northerly 4 or 5. Moderate, occasionally rough at first. Mainly fair. Good. ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 11:44:41 -0500 From: Rafael Possamai <rafael () gav ufsc br> To: Mitch Howards <hbf9121 () hotmail com> Cc: "nanog () nanog org" <nanog () nanog org> Subject: Re: Data Center Network Monitoring with TAPs Message-ID: <CAJB2g-Hy264X4LCZ2ddH636Kh9w6aU=vAhiO7i=FY3CVfCTu7A () mail gmail com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Here's a recent forum thread that discussed the same exact topic. You might find some insight: http://www.reddit.com/r/networking/comments/3aip3p/data_center_network_monitoring/ On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 11:06 AM, Mitch Howards <hbf9121 () hotmail com> wrote:
Hello All, Was wondering what folks are using to monitor traffic on their networks. Looking into Ixia and APCON devices for dedup and other filtering features as well as passive fiber TAPs to capture the traffic. How are folks handling TAP'ing large data center networks? TAPs at the "distribution layer" would be the best fit for my network but that would require a ton of passive fiber TAPs for the incoming fibers to the distribution switches. The end goal is to not only capture the north-south traffic on the network but also east-west traffic. It seems more efficient to just use SPANs but there are many limitations using SPANs. Thanks in advance for any suggestions. Mitch
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 17:58:54 +0000
From: Harlan Stenn <stenn () ntp org>
To: Tony Finch <dot () dotat at>
Cc: Harlan Stenn <stenn () ntp org>, Saku Ytti <saku () ytti fi>,
nanog () nanog org
Subject: Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND
Message-ID: <E1Z75zi-000LZc-P0 () stenn ntp org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Tony Finch writes:
Harlan Stenn <stenn () ntp org> wrote:It's a problem with POSIX, not UTC. UTC is monotonic.The problems are that UTC is unpredictable, and it breaks the standard labelling of points in time that was used for hundreds (arguably thousands) of years before 1972.
You mean back when seconds were rubbery, and before the earth's rotational speed could be easily and accurately measured, or at least when the wobbles at that level of accuracy became so noticeable that they could no longer be ignored? H ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 14:54:09 -0400 From: David Sovereen <david.sovereen () mercury net> To: nanog () nanog org Subject: Facebook contact, images issues in IL/WI Message-ID: <7FDC076C-51E9-4006-90B6-5991BC33D8DC () mercury net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hello, If someone from Facebook is reading, please contact me off-list. Since last Thursday, our customers have been having image loading problems at Facebook.com <http://facebook.com/> We know it?s not just us?many users are reporting similar problems at https://downdetector.com/status/facebook/map/ <https://downdetector.com/status/facebook/map/> Would like to help get this resolved. Thanks, Dave ====================================================================== MERCURY NETWORK CORPORATION David Sovereen 920-686-4800 x 151 1011 Washington St Ste 3, Manitowoc, WI 54220-5248 http://www.mercury.net <http://www.mercury.net/> ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:36:32 -0400 From: Marshall Eubanks <marshall.eubanks () gmail com> To: Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer () nic fr> Cc: "Bjoern A. Zeeb" <bzeeb-lists () lists zabbadoz net>, "nanog () nanog org" <nanog () nanog org> Subject: Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND Message-ID: <CAJNg7VLRLLty=A75ehXvMK4TUViR9hiQyHtpvF29fopZX2jA6g () mail gmail com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 8:44 AM, Stephane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer () nic fr> wrote:
On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 12:38:28PM +0000, Bjoern A. Zeeb <bzeeb-lists () lists zabbadoz net> wrote a message of 17 lines which said:So we need a new center of the universe and switch to stardate and thus solve the 32bit UNIX time problem for real this time?Or simply use TAI which is the obvious time reference for Internet devices. Using UTC in routers is madness. Routers and Internet servers should use TAI internally and use UTC only when communicating with humans (the inferior life form which crawls on the Earth surface and cares about things like whether the sun is high at noon, for outside picnics).
If the Earth's core ever decides to have some real fun and causes there to be a negative leap second (there is historical precedent for this, albeit before the existence of UTC and atomic time) there would be a minute with only 59 seconds, and I would expect things to break in new and creative ways. We live in a relatively narrow slice of time (a few decades) where this is a possibility, but it is a possibility. (Note that the number of leap seconds per year has _slowed_ recently, corresponding to a speed up in the long term averaged rotation of the Earth. If that speed up of the Earth's rotation were to happen again, negative leap seconds would be inevitable.) The drift between the Earth's time and atomic time will just get worse over longer time frames (see http://www.ucolick.org/~sla/leapsecs/year2100.html ). Even if UTC - TAI is just fixed (i.e., no more leap seconds), that is just pushing the problem down the road, and our grandkids will have to deal with leap minutes, or our remoter descendants with leap hours.
It's a problem with POSIX, not UTC.
Yes. I remember this being raised by people at the USNO back in the early
1990's, but there was no interest in changing POSIX. Too much installed
base was the reason stated IIRC.
My opinion is (and has been since the early 90's) that the computer /
Internet world should just adopt IAT as the time system in use. That is the
best time we have, and it will never have steps. Yes, that means that you
would need something like a time zone file to set your system clock by hand
from local (UTC) time, but, then, we already have to have time zone files.
Regards
Marshall Eubanks
------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 16:39:27 -0400
From: Nicholas Oas <nicholas.oas () gmail com>
To: "nanog () nanog org" <nanog () nanog org>
Subject: Residential VSAT experiences?
Message-ID:
<CAHnk=Cj4uRgyyMOW+BbgLpqPAbKCPPiLLT+sMXnfb2Jf+j8vSg () mail gmail com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Would anyone mind sharing with me their first-hand experiences with
residential satellite internet?
Right now I am evaluating HughesNet Gen4 and ViaSat Exede and I'm thinking
specifically as a sysadmin who needs to use the uplink for work, not surf.
What are your experiences with the following applications?
-SSH, (specifically interactive CLI shell access)
-RDP
-SIP over SSL
-IPSec Tunneling (should be a non-starter due to latency)
-GRE Tunneling
Thank you,
-Nicholas
------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 13:58:21 -0700
From: "Peter Kranz" <pkranz () unwiredltd com>
To: <nanog () nanog org>
Subject: Core alignment fusion splicers
Message-ID: <20ac01d0ad2e$2c76fa00$8564ee00$@unwiredltd.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Curious if any of you have favorites when it comes to fusion splicers..
There is a huge range in price for units that appear to be very similar in
both specifications and appearance. Currently considering standardizing on
the INNO View 5 http://www.innoinstrument.com/new/splicer/view5.php , but we
need enough of these units I'd love stories from the field before dropping
the order.
Peter Kranz
www.UnwiredLtd.com <http://www.unwiredltd.com/>
Desk: 510-868-1614 x100
Mobile: 510-207-0000
pkranz () unwiredltd com <mailto:pkranz () unwiredltd com>
------------------------------
Message: 17
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 21:06:09 +0000
From: Mel Beckman <mel () beckman org>
To: Peter Kranz <pkranz () unwiredltd com>
Cc: "<nanog () nanog org>" <nanog () nanog org>
Subject: Re: Core alignment fusion splicers
Message-ID: <E460D466-7B62-401E-A6B1-B6756C0FF56C () beckman org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Don?t buy to start. Instead, rent a few different brands for splicing projects until you know what features you need
and want. And don?t scrimp on the cleaver. Get a quality automatic cleaver (these usually come in the rental bundle).
-mel
On Jun 22, 2015, at 1:58 PM, Peter Kranz <pkranz () unwiredltd com> wrote: Curious if any of you have favorites when it comes to fusion splicers.. There is a huge range in price for units that appear to be very similar in both specifications and appearance. Currently considering standardizing on the INNO View 5 http://www.innoinstrument.com/new/splicer/view5.php , but we need enough of these units I'd love stories from the field before dropping the order. Peter Kranz www.UnwiredLtd.com <http://www.unwiredltd.com/> Desk: 510-868-1614 x100 Mobile: 510-207-0000 pkranz () unwiredltd com <mailto:pkranz () unwiredltd com>
------------------------------
Message: 18
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 21:07:41 +0000
From: J?rgen Jaritsch <jj () anexia at>
To: Peter Kranz <pkranz () unwiredltd com>, "nanog () nanog org"
<nanog () nanog org>
Subject: AW: Core alignment fusion splicers
Message-ID: <515026f2064b40768f82af92334ba8f4 () anx-i-dag02 anx.local>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Hi,
We do not have the new View-series but we're working with the IFS-10:
http://www.innoinstrument.com/new/splicer/ifs10.php
Easy to use.
Works quite good under rough conditions.
Not THAT expensive.
Battery lifetime is ok.
Best regards
J?rgen Jaritsch
Head of Network & Infrastructure
ANEXIA Internetdienstleistungs GmbH
Telefon: +43-5-0556-300
Telefax: +43-5-0556-500
E-Mail: jj () anexia at
Web: http://www.anexia.at
Anschrift Hauptsitz Klagenfurt: Feldkirchnerstra?e 140, 9020 Klagenfurt
Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander Windbichler
Firmenbuch: FN 289918a | Gerichtsstand: Klagenfurt | UID-Nummer: AT U63216601
-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces () nanog org] Im Auftrag von Peter Kranz
Gesendet: Montag, 22. Juni 2015 22:58
An: nanog () nanog org
Betreff: Core alignment fusion splicers
Curious if any of you have favorites when it comes to fusion splicers..
There is a huge range in price for units that appear to be very similar in
both specifications and appearance. Currently considering standardizing on
the INNO View 5 http://www.innoinstrument.com/new/splicer/view5.php , but we
need enough of these units I'd love stories from the field before dropping
the order.
Peter Kranz
www.UnwiredLtd.com <http://www.unwiredltd.com/>
Desk: 510-868-1614 x100
Mobile: 510-207-0000
pkranz () unwiredltd com <mailto:pkranz () unwiredltd com>
------------------------------
Message: 19
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 18:11:38 -0400
From: William Herrin <bill () herrin us>
To: Nicholas Oas <nicholas.oas () gmail com>
Cc: "nanog () nanog org" <nanog () nanog org>
Subject: Re: Residential VSAT experiences?
Message-ID:
<CAP-guGWod0ayQMq31ajL1Bq3cR3gS9uhh8i6Q9XwwEmnycOa9Q () mail gmail com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 4:39 PM, Nicholas Oas <nicholas.oas () gmail com> wrote:
Would anyone mind sharing with me their first-hand experiences with residential satellite internet?
Hi Nicholas, Two-way satellite systems based on SV's in geostationary orbit (like the two you're considering) have high latency. 22,000 miles out, another 22,000 miles back and do it again for the return packet. You'll start around 500ms latency and go up from there. Any kind of interactive session (like SSH and RDP) will be excruciating. I'm not aware of any low earth orbit systems providing residential Internet. Iridium tries to but the bandwidth is pathetic (2400bps or so). LEO vehicles are only 500-1000 miles up. Latency is high compared to wireline systems but within usable bounds for interactive sessions. Regards, Bill Herrin -- William Herrin ................ herrin () dirtside com bill () herrin us Owner, Dirtside Systems ......... Web: <http://www.dirtside.com/> ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:18:14 -0700 From: Doug Barton <dougb () dougbarton us> To: nanog () nanog org Subject: Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND Message-ID: <558889A6.10704 () dougbarton us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed" On 6/19/15 2:58 PM, Harlan Stenn wrote:
Bad idea. When restarting ntpd your clocks will likely be off by a second, which will cause a backward step, which will force the problem you claim to be avoiding. There are plenty of ways to solve this problem, and you just get to choose what you want to risk/pay.
You misunderstand the problem. :) The problem is not "clock skips backward one second," because most of the time that's not what happens. The problem is that most software does not handle it well when the clock ticks ... :59 :60 :00 instead of ticking directly from :59 to :00. THAT problem is avoided by temporarily turning off NTP and then turning it back on again when "the coast is clear." Most software can handle the "clock skips forward or backwards one second" problem fairly robustly, and as Baldur pointed out by doing the reset in a controlled manner you greatly reduce your overall risk. Doug -- I am conducting an experiment in the efficacy of PGP/MIME signatures. This message should be signed. If it is not, or the signature does not validate, please let me know how you received this message (direct, or to a list) and the mail software you use. Thanks! -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 473 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: <http://mailman.nanog.org/pipermail/nanog/attachments/20150622/6ecdd41d/attachment-0001.pgp> ------------------------------ Message: 21 Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:33:43 -0700 From: Mike Lyon <mike.lyon () gmail com> To: Nicholas Oas <nicholas.oas () gmail com>, NANOG <nanog () nanog org> Subject: Re: Residential VSAT experiences? Message-ID: <CAFFgAjBhLCOBBn3iBJj_aMjTiar6JnrN4=pN5o8uW+kMH-D28g () mail gmail com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 SIP will suck. VPN will suck. RDP will suck. Have you looked to see if you have any local wireless ISPs in your area? Hit me up offlist if you want me to check for you. -Mike On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 1:39 PM, Nicholas Oas <nicholas.oas () gmail com> wrote:
Would anyone mind sharing with me their first-hand experiences with residential satellite internet? Right now I am evaluating HughesNet Gen4 and ViaSat Exede and I'm thinking specifically as a sysadmin who needs to use the uplink for work, not surf. What are your experiences with the following applications? -SSH, (specifically interactive CLI shell access) -RDP -SIP over SSL -IPSec Tunneling (should be a non-starter due to latency) -GRE Tunneling Thank you, -Nicholas
-- Mike Lyon 408-621-4826 mike.lyon () gmail com http://www.linkedin.com/in/mlyon ------------------------------ Message: 22 Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 22:35:45 +0000 From: "Fred Baker (fred)" <fred () cisco com> To: William Herrin <bill () herrin us>, Nicholas Oas <nicholas.oas () gmail com> Cc: "nanog () nanog org" <nanog () nanog org> Subject: Re: Residential VSAT experiences? Message-ID: <8EAA4E3F-C17F-4988-990F-808E4E03FA5F () cisco com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
On Jun 22, 2015, at 3:11 PM, William Herrin <bill () herrin us> wrote: Two-way satellite systems based on SV's in geostationary orbit (like the two you're considering) have high latency. 22,000 miles out, another 22,000 miles back and do it again for the return packet. You'll start around 500ms latency and go up from there. Any kind of interactive session (like SSH and RDP) will be excruciating.
It is indeed. This is first-hand in the sense that I once worked for an earth station manufacturer and did a fair bit of work related to this environment, and second-hand in that my sister, for a while, used VSAT connectivity to her home. The trick in the context is what's called a "performance-enhancing proxy", or PEP. What it does, in concept, is terminate a TCP connection at each earth station and use some form of private protocol over the bird. Cisco RBSCP (which maps TCP connections to SCTP sessions over the bird, http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/ios-xml/ios/interface/configuration/15-sy/ir-15-sy-book/ir-rt-bsd-sat.html) is an example of such a technology. The obvious benefit of a PEP is that it can convince a TCP sender to keep enough data in flight to make good use of the throughput rate of the satellite - you have a start-up issue with the first RTT, but after that it has essentially figured out what the effective window should be and makes that happen. The downside of a PEP is when the application is itself interactive (it's not about rate, it's about responsiveness clocked by end-to-end RTT) or the protocol in question isn't TCP (noting that TCP in IPsec ESP isn't TCP to the PEP - it's IPsec ESP, and can 't be goosed along). In my sister's case, her description of the service was somewhat colorful, and included the word "slow". -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 487 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: <http://mailman.nanog.org/pipermail/nanog/attachments/20150622/f65b4e17/attachment-0001.pgp> ------------------------------ Message: 23 Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 22:49:04 +0000 From: "Dovid Bender" <dovid () telecurve com> To: "Mike Lyon" <mike.lyon () gmail com>, "NANOG" <nanog-bounces () nanog org>, "Nicholas Oas" <nicholas.oas () gmail com>, "NANOG" <nanog () nanog org> Subject: Re: Residential VSAT experiences? Message-ID: <274163724-1435013345-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1126150793-@b1.c3.bise6.blackberry> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Interesting that you say that about sip. We had a client that would use it for sip on ships all the time. It wasn't the best but it worked. Ping times were between 500-700ms. Regards, Dovid -----Original Message----- From: Mike Lyon <mike.lyon () gmail com> Sender: "NANOG" <nanog-bounces () nanog org>Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:33:43 To: Nicholas Oas<nicholas.oas () gmail com>; NANOG<nanog () nanog org> Subject: Re: Residential VSAT experiences? SIP will suck. VPN will suck. RDP will suck. Have you looked to see if you have any local wireless ISPs in your area? Hit me up offlist if you want me to check for you. -Mike On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 1:39 PM, Nicholas Oas <nicholas.oas () gmail com> wrote:
Would anyone mind sharing with me their first-hand experiences with residential satellite internet? Right now I am evaluating HughesNet Gen4 and ViaSat Exede and I'm thinking specifically as a sysadmin who needs to use the uplink for work, not surf. What are your experiences with the following applications? -SSH, (specifically interactive CLI shell access) -RDP -SIP over SSL -IPSec Tunneling (should be a non-starter due to latency) -GRE Tunneling Thank you, -Nicholas
-- Mike Lyon 408-621-4826 mike.lyon () gmail com http://www.linkedin.com/in/mlyon ------------------------------ Message: 24 Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:54:49 -0700 From: Mike Lyon <mike.lyon () gmail com> To: dovid () telecurve com Cc: NANOG <nanog-bounces () nanog org>, Nicholas Oas <nicholas.oas () gmail com>, NANOG <nanog () nanog org> Subject: Re: Residential VSAT experiences? Message-ID: <CAFFgAjC_VDBUa_fM1oe-WQ3R2_Xctg+PmOCLaByoFRgRtdMghA () mail gmail com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I never had good luck with VSAT and SIP. Maybe you had a better kit than I did :) -Mike On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Dovid Bender <dovid () telecurve com> wrote:
Interesting that you say that about sip. We had a client that would use it for sip on ships all the time. It wasn't the best but it worked. Ping times were between 500-700ms. Regards, Dovid -----Original Message----- From: Mike Lyon <mike.lyon () gmail com> Sender: "NANOG" <nanog-bounces () nanog org>Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:33:43 To: Nicholas Oas<nicholas.oas () gmail com>; NANOG<nanog () nanog org> Subject: Re: Residential VSAT experiences? SIP will suck. VPN will suck. RDP will suck. Have you looked to see if you have any local wireless ISPs in your area? Hit me up offlist if you want me to check for you. -Mike On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 1:39 PM, Nicholas Oas <nicholas.oas () gmail com> wrote:Would anyone mind sharing with me their first-hand experiences with residential satellite internet? Right now I am evaluating HughesNet Gen4 and ViaSat Exede and I'mthinkingspecifically as a sysadmin who needs to use the uplink for work, notsurf.What are your experiences with the following applications? -SSH, (specifically interactive CLI shell access) -RDP -SIP over SSL -IPSec Tunneling (should be a non-starter due to latency) -GRE Tunneling Thank you, -Nicholas-- Mike Lyon 408-621-4826 mike.lyon () gmail com http://www.linkedin.com/in/mlyon
-- Mike Lyon 408-621-4826 mike.lyon () gmail com http://www.linkedin.com/in/mlyon ------------------------------ Message: 25 Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 16:04:55 -0700 From: Hugo Slabbert <hugo () slabnet com> To: Mike Lyon <mike.lyon () gmail com> Cc: dovid () telecurve com, NANOG <nanog-bounces () nanog org>, NANOG <nanog () nanog org> Subject: Re: Residential VSAT experiences? Message-ID: <20150622230455.GO28830 () bamboo slabnet com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; Format="flowed" Personally, 500-700ms of delay is well within distinguishable range and causes challenges in verbal communication. If the speakers are both expecting and accustomed to delay like that (e.g. sailors that are used to being hundreds/thousands of miles away from anywhere and any other comms solution sucks anyway), it could be workable. For regular consumer/business voice applications, 100ms and lower is decent, but above that starts to get into various degrees of suckage. Just my 2c. -- Hugo On Mon 2015-Jun-22 15:54:49 -0700, Mike Lyon <mike.lyon () gmail com> wrote:
I never had good luck with VSAT and SIP. Maybe you had a better kit than I did :) -Mike On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Dovid Bender <dovid () telecurve com> wrote:Interesting that you say that about sip. We had a client that would use it for sip on ships all the time. It wasn't the best but it worked. Ping times were between 500-700ms. Regards, Dovid -----Original Message----- From: Mike Lyon <mike.lyon () gmail com> Sender: "NANOG" <nanog-bounces () nanog org>Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:33:43 To: Nicholas Oas<nicholas.oas () gmail com>; NANOG<nanog () nanog org> Subject: Re: Residential VSAT experiences? SIP will suck. VPN will suck. RDP will suck. Have you looked to see if you have any local wireless ISPs in your area? Hit me up offlist if you want me to check for you. -Mike On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 1:39 PM, Nicholas Oas <nicholas.oas () gmail com> wrote:Would anyone mind sharing with me their first-hand experiences with residential satellite internet? Right now I am evaluating HughesNet Gen4 and ViaSat Exede and I'mthinkingspecifically as a sysadmin who needs to use the uplink for work, notsurf.What are your experiences with the following applications? -SSH, (specifically interactive CLI shell access) -RDP -SIP over SSL -IPSec Tunneling (should be a non-starter due to latency) -GRE Tunneling Thank you, -Nicholas-- Mike Lyon 408-621-4826 mike.lyon () gmail com http://www.linkedin.com/in/mlyon-- Mike Lyon 408-621-4826 mike.lyon () gmail com http://www.linkedin.com/in/mlyon
-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 819 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: <http://mailman.nanog.org/pipermail/nanog/attachments/20150622/8ea3335f/attachment-0001.pgp> ------------------------------ Message: 26 Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 23:06:54 +0000 From: Harlan Stenn <stenn () ntp org> To: Doug Barton <dougb () dougbarton us> Cc: nanog () nanog org Subject: Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND Message-ID: <E1Z7Anm-000LpU-1L () stenn ntp org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Doug Barton writes:
This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) On 6/19/15 2:58 PM, Harlan Stenn wrote:Bad idea. When restarting ntpd your clocks will likely be off by a second, which will cause a backward step, which will force the problem you claim to be avoiding. There are plenty of ways to solve this problem, and you just get to choose what you want to risk/pay.You misunderstand the problem. :) The problem is not "clock skips backward one second," because most of the time that's not what happens. The problem is that most software does not handle it well when the clock ticks ... :59 :60 :00 instead of ticking directly from :59 to :00.
POSIX NEVER shows :60.
THAT problem is avoided by temporarily turning off NTP and then turning it back on again when "the coast is clear." Most software can handle the "clock skips forward or backwards one second" problem fairly robustly,= and as Baldur pointed out by doing the reset in a controlled manner you greatly reduce your overall risk.
Time going backwards is deadly to a number of applications.
But apparently not to applications you care about.
You're also not doing anything where somebody is going to get sued
because a timestamp is off by a second. There are people for whom this
is a very real risk.
H
------------------------------
Message: 27
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 16:12:32 -0700
From: Mike Hale <eyeronic.design () gmail com>
To: Hugo Slabbert <hugo () slabnet com>
Cc: Mike Lyon <mike.lyon () gmail com>, NANOG <nanog-bounces () nanog org>,
NANOG <nanog () nanog org>
Subject: Re: Residential VSAT experiences?
Message-ID:
<CAN3um4zVzgrGzDVd=gbkjo=j=_oAowXvNQsduuUvc0o9y71CGw () mail gmail com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
I too have had customers in a previous life where the 500ms delay
really didn't cause any big issue.
Same with SSH and even heavier stuff like SMB. Sure, it was slower
than expected, but I could still saturate the pipe pretty good.
Thing is...the kind of setups where you're getting 500ms delay with
little jitter is stupidly expensive. Those are generally going to be
an SCPC (single carrier per channel) uplink with hopefully something
like IP over DVB providing a large pool of downlink bandwidth. Expect
to pay over 4k per Megahertz (roughly translated to 1 Mbps
unidirectional depending your link budgets) of bandwidth (sometimes
substantially more, depending on what bird and provider you're using).
O3B looks really interesting. I'm not aware of what they're current
state of deployment is, but they've got a MEO (I think) constellation
planned which will help a lot of with that latency. Viasat had
something that looked promising too.
I mean..if you're looking at doing sysadmin type stuff where you're
already going to be pulling out your hair at times, doing so over
hughesnet is going to suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck.
On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 4:04 PM, Hugo Slabbert <hugo () slabnet com> wrote:
Personally, 500-700ms of delay is well within distinguishable range and causes challenges in verbal communication. If the speakers are both expecting and accustomed to delay like that (e.g. sailors that are used to being hundreds/thousands of miles away from anywhere and any other comms solution sucks anyway), it could be workable. For regular consumer/business voice applications, 100ms and lower is decent, but above that starts to get into various degrees of suckage. Just my 2c. -- Hugo On Mon 2015-Jun-22 15:54:49 -0700, Mike Lyon <mike.lyon () gmail com> wrote:I never had good luck with VSAT and SIP. Maybe you had a better kit than I did :) -Mike On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Dovid Bender <dovid () telecurve com> wrote:Interesting that you say that about sip. We had a client that would use it for sip on ships all the time. It wasn't the best but it worked. Ping times were between 500-700ms. Regards, Dovid -----Original Message----- From: Mike Lyon <mike.lyon () gmail com> Sender: "NANOG" <nanog-bounces () nanog org>Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:33:43 To: Nicholas Oas<nicholas.oas () gmail com>; NANOG<nanog () nanog org> Subject: Re: Residential VSAT experiences? SIP will suck. VPN will suck. RDP will suck. Have you looked to see if you have any local wireless ISPs in your area? Hit me up offlist if you want me to check for you. -Mike On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 1:39 PM, Nicholas Oas <nicholas.oas () gmail com> wrote:Would anyone mind sharing with me their first-hand experiences with residential satellite internet? Right now I am evaluating HughesNet Gen4 and ViaSat Exede and I'mthinkingspecifically as a sysadmin who needs to use the uplink for work, notsurf.What are your experiences with the following applications? -SSH, (specifically interactive CLI shell access) -RDP -SIP over SSL -IPSec Tunneling (should be a non-starter due to latency) -GRE Tunneling Thank you, -Nicholas-- Mike Lyon 408-621-4826 mike.lyon () gmail com http://www.linkedin.com/in/mlyon-- Mike Lyon 408-621-4826 mike.lyon () gmail com http://www.linkedin.com/in/mlyon
-- 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0 ------------------------------ Message: 28 Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 20:10:12 -0400 From: Michael Conlen <mike () conlen org> To: Nicholas Oas <nicholas.oas () gmail com> Cc: "nanog () nanog org" <nanog () nanog org> Subject: Re: Residential VSAT experiences? Message-ID: <9AB1D8A3-AA0E-4DAF-92D1-054D5A121EC9 () conlen org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 On Jun 22, 2015, at 4:39 PM, Nicholas Oas <nicholas.oas () gmail com> wrote:
Would anyone mind sharing with me their first-hand experiences with residential satellite internet? Right now I am evaluating HughesNet Gen4 and ViaSat Exede and I'm thinking specifically as a sysadmin who needs to use the uplink for work, not surf.
My experience with geostationary was that latencies were around 720 ms in practice. Telnet was painful and it turns out
my brain didn?t like typing things while I wasn?t getting instant feedback, though I understand there?s software for
that problem now.
Reliability was pretty good unless the satellite I was using happened to lose it?s control processors. I was using
Panamsat Galaxy 4 when it failed. I don?t know how many angry phone calls we got about why we weren?t answering our
pages about the entire network being down before we got into the office. In our case recovery involved getting access
to another satellite and having people re-aim the dishes.
My only real recollection besides that was that the signal was bad enough/long enough to induce TCP Silly Window
Syndrome; but I can?t imagine anyone?s running an OS that old anymore.
?
Mike
------------------------------
Message: 29
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 17:27:09 -0700
From: "Scott Weeks" <surfer () mauigateway com>
To: <nanog () nanog org>
Subject: Re: Residential VSAT experiences?
Message-ID: <20150622172709.1DAC5311 () m0005298 ppops net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
--- bill () herrin us wrote:
From: William Herrin <bill () herrin us>
Two-way satellite systems based on SV's in geostationary orbit (like
the two you're considering) have high latency. 22,000 miles out,
another 22,000 miles back and do it again for the return packet.
You'll start around 500ms latency and go up from there. Any kind of
interactive session (like SSH and RDP) will be excruciating.
-----------------------------------------------
I do SSH over geostationary satellite links (C-band) all
the time. I'd say it's slow, but not excruciating, unless
you type really fast on the network device's CLI. :-)
scott
------------------------------
Message: 30
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 17:18:03 -0700
From: Alfred Olton <alfredolton () gmail com>
To: nicholas.oas () gmail com, nanog () nanog org
Subject: Fwd: Residential VSAT experiences?
Message-ID:
<CACM0p3phDGBP5RdhLMB2i_kzmes9Oi1rq7E_7L80pRR8dafSQw () mail gmail com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
I had Hughes Net a few years back and can confirm that SSH access was
pretty much intolerable for me.
The delay between what I was typing, and when it would actually show up on
the screen in the remote terminal was really annoying for me.
As mentioned in previous responses, I think you would want a low orbit
satellite internet provider, if you can find one for residential use.
In my case, I had a land line, but was too far out for ADSL, so I ended up
getting ISDN (*with unlimited local calling on my phone plan*).
Of course the SSH usage experience then was much better.
Al
On 06/22/2015 04:04 PM, Hugo Slabbert wrote:> Personally, 500-700ms of
delay is well within distinguishable range and
causes challenges in verbal communication. If the speakers are both expecting and accustomed to delay like that (e.g. sailors that are used to being hundreds/thousands of miles away from anywhere and any other comms solution sucks anyway), it could be workable. For regular consumer/business voice applications, 100ms and lower is decent, but above that starts to get into various degrees of suckage. Just my 2c. -- Hugo On Mon 2015-Jun-22 15:54:49 -0700, Mike Lyon <mike.lyon () gmail com> wrote:I never had good luck with VSAT and SIP. Maybe you had a better kit than I did :) -Mike On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Dovid Bender <dovid () telecurve com> wrote:Interesting that you say that about sip. We had a client that would use it for sip on ships all the time. It wasn't the best but it worked. Ping times were between 500-700ms. Regards, Dovid -----Original Message----- From: Mike Lyon <mike.lyon () gmail com> Sender: "NANOG" <nanog-bounces () nanog org>Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:33:43 To: Nicholas Oas<nicholas.oas () gmail com>; NANOG<nanog () nanog org> Subject: Re: Residential VSAT experiences? SIP will suck. VPN will suck. RDP will suck. Have you looked to see if you have any local wireless ISPs in your area? Hit me up offlist if you want me to check for you. -Mike On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 1:39 PM, Nicholas Oas <nicholas.oas () gmail com> wrote:Would anyone mind sharing with me their first-hand experiences with residential satellite internet? Right now I am evaluating HughesNet Gen4 and ViaSat Exede and I'mthinkingspecifically as a sysadmin who needs to use the uplink for work, notsurf.What are your experiences with the following applications? -SSH, (specifically interactive CLI shell access) -RDP -SIP over SSL -IPSec Tunneling (should be a non-starter due to latency) -GRE Tunneling Thank you, -Nicholas-- Mike Lyon 408-621-4826 mike.lyon () gmail com http://www.linkedin.com/in/mlyon-- Mike Lyon 408-621-4826 mike.lyon () gmail com http://www.linkedin.com/in/mlyon
------------------------------ Message: 31 Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 18:01:54 -0700 From: Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon () orthanc ca> To: "North American Network Operators' Group" <nanog () nanog org> Subject: Re: Residential VSAT experiences? Message-ID: <83287994-FBA2-42DD-8006-7C1E5B0F8609 () orthanc ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On Jun 22, 2015, at 5:27 PM, Scott Weeks <surfer () mauigateway com> wrote:
I do SSH over geostationary satellite links (C-band) all the time. I'd say it's slow, but not excruciating, unless you type really fast on the network device's CLI. :-)
SSH client/server authors would do well to learn the lessons of telnet line mode. As would authors of 'interactive' command line applications. The NVT concept is still useful in this day and age, far beyond the LA36. (I.e., if the termcap entry says 'dumb', honour it. There is a damn good reason we are saying 'turn off the bling'.) --lyndon -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: <http://mailman.nanog.org/pipermail/nanog/attachments/20150622/9b64d53e/attachment-0001.pgp> ------------------------------ Message: 32 Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 21:11:17 -0400 From: TR Shaw <tshaw () oitc com> To: Alfred Olton <alfredolton () gmail com> Cc: nicholas.oas () gmail com, nanog () nanog org Subject: Re: Residential VSAT experiences? Message-ID: <54EAD60A-0A03-4240-8967-ADE3642C2DF4 () oitc com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I don?t know what your location is but a wireless internet provider using Canopy or Ubiquity or whatever is much more preferable. Also cellular is used in ?remote? locations with good results. I know plenty of people "in the bush? that use these alternatives over VSat. I use the above over VSat when I am out on fishing trips to remote locations. For truly remote where there is no options other than VSat <sigh> you need to live with the latency problems for now. Iridum is currently too slow and too costly. Maybe LEO or MEO in the future but not now. I have used SSH from a transatlantic flight but the delay can weigh on you ;-) Tom
On Jun 22, 2015, at 8:18 PM, Alfred Olton <alfredolton () gmail com> wrote: I had Hughes Net a few years back and can confirm that SSH access was pretty much intolerable for me. The delay between what I was typing, and when it would actually show up on the screen in the remote terminal was really annoying for me. As mentioned in previous responses, I think you would want a low orbit satellite internet provider, if you can find one for residential use. In my case, I had a land line, but was too far out for ADSL, so I ended up getting ISDN (*with unlimited local calling on my phone plan*). Of course the SSH usage experience then was much better. Al On 06/22/2015 04:04 PM, Hugo Slabbert wrote:> Personally, 500-700ms of delay is well within distinguishable range andcauses challenges in verbal communication. If the speakers are both expecting and accustomed to delay like that (e.g. sailors that are used to being hundreds/thousands of miles away from anywhere and any other comms solution sucks anyway), it could be workable. For regular consumer/business voice applications, 100ms and lower is decent, but above that starts to get into various degrees of suckage. Just my 2c. -- Hugo On Mon 2015-Jun-22 15:54:49 -0700, Mike Lyon <mike.lyon () gmail com> wrote:I never had good luck with VSAT and SIP. Maybe you had a better kit than I did :) -Mike On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 3:49 PM, Dovid Bender <dovid () telecurve com> wrote:Interesting that you say that about sip. We had a client that would use it for sip on ships all the time. It wasn't the best but it worked. Ping times were between 500-700ms. Regards, Dovid -----Original Message----- From: Mike Lyon <mike.lyon () gmail com> Sender: "NANOG" <nanog-bounces () nanog org>Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 15:33:43 To: Nicholas Oas<nicholas.oas () gmail com>; NANOG<nanog () nanog org> Subject: Re: Residential VSAT experiences? SIP will suck. VPN will suck. RDP will suck. Have you looked to see if you have any local wireless ISPs in your area? Hit me up offlist if you want me to check for you. -Mike On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 1:39 PM, Nicholas Oas <nicholas.oas () gmail com> wrote:Would anyone mind sharing with me their first-hand experiences with residential satellite internet? Right now I am evaluating HughesNet Gen4 and ViaSat Exede and I'mthinkingspecifically as a sysadmin who needs to use the uplink for work, notsurf.What are your experiences with the following applications? -SSH, (specifically interactive CLI shell access) -RDP -SIP over SSL -IPSec Tunneling (should be a non-starter due to latency) -GRE Tunneling Thank you, -Nicholas-- Mike Lyon 408-621-4826 mike.lyon () gmail com http://www.linkedin.com/in/mlyon-- Mike Lyon 408-621-4826 mike.lyon () gmail com http://www.linkedin.com/in/mlyon
------------------------------
Message: 33
Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 18:35:34 -0700
From: Dave Crocker <dhc2 () dcrocker net>
To: Lyndon Nerenberg <lyndon () orthanc ca>, "North American Network
Operators' Group" <nanog () nanog org>
Subject: Re: Residential VSAT experiences?
Message-ID: <5588B7E6.7090508 () dcrocker net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
On 6/22/2015 6:01 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
SSH client/server authors would do well to learn the lessons of telnet line mode.
Too bad the RCTE Telnet option never got popular... d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net ------------------------------ Message: 34 Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 07:10:16 +0200 (CEST) From: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike () swm pp se> To: "nanog () nanog org" <nanog () nanog org> Subject: Re: Residential VSAT experiences? Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1506230709031.9487 () uplift swm pp se> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed On Mon, 22 Jun 2015, Michael Conlen wrote:
typing things while I wasn?t getting instant feedback, though I understand there?s software for that problem now.
Yes, https://mosh.mit.edu/ is your friend if you want to do things interactively. Still, satellite is painful, avoid if anything else decent is available. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike () swm pp se ------------------------------ Message: 35 Date: Mon, 22 Jun 2015 22:14:19 -0700 From: Dave Taht <dave.taht () gmail com> To: Michael Conlen <mike () conlen org> Cc: Nicholas Oas <nicholas.oas () gmail com>, "nanog () nanog org" <nanog () nanog org> Subject: Re: Residential VSAT experiences? Message-ID: <CAA93jw7rp=RO+-dttPM_DvospL3XuwpiN0WNhOa-U_PyCuYnsg () mail gmail com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Mon, Jun 22, 2015 at 5:10 PM, Michael Conlen <mike () conlen org> wrote:
On Jun 22, 2015, at 4:39 PM, Nicholas Oas <nicholas.oas () gmail com> wrote:Would anyone mind sharing with me their first-hand experiences with residential satellite internet? Right now I am evaluating HughesNet Gen4 and ViaSat Exede and I'm thinking specifically as a sysadmin who needs to use the uplink for work, not surf.My experience with geostationary was that latencies were around 720 ms in practice. Telnet was painful and it turns out my brain didn?t like typing things while I wasn?t getting instant feedback, though I understand there?s software for that problem now.
Mosh makes latencies like this a lot less painful. Still painful.
Reliability was pretty good unless the satellite I was using happened to lose it?s control processors. I was using Panamsat Galaxy 4 when it failed. I don?t know how many angry phone calls we got about why we weren?t answering our pages about the entire network being down before we got into the office. In our case recovery involved getting access to another satellite and having people re-aim the dishes. My only real recollection besides that was that the signal was bad enough/long enough to induce TCP Silly Window Syndrome; but I can?t imagine anyone?s running an OS that old anymore. ? Mike
-- Dave T?ht worldwide bufferbloat report: http://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/results/bufferbloat And: What will it take to vastly improve wifi for everyone? https://plus.google.com/u/0/explore/makewififast ------------------------------ Message: 36 Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 07:07:25 +0000 From: Mel Beckman <mel () beckman org> To: Harlan Stenn <stenn () ntp org> Cc: Doug Barton <dougb () dougbarton us>, "<nanog () nanog org>" <nanog () nanog org> Subject: Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND Message-ID: <D3DFB3F2-231C-4038-9104-428625EFA7D1 () beckman org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Harlan, Help me understand why there is a serious risk of going back in time. I acknowledge that there is a remote chance of a backstep, but the probability seems very low. Suppose I disable my NTP service five minutes before a positive leap second occurs, so that no server in my network can query it. These servers will then run on their own internal clocks. Then, five minutes after the leap second, I re-engage NTP. Assuming a high degree of local oscillator fidelity, imagine the clock drift is zero. The result is that NTP will report one second older than the time currently in my server, i.e. exactly five minutes after the 23:59:60 leap second. Thus even systems, such as Unix, where 23:59:60 does not exist in the UTC implementation, the timestamp the server sees from NTP is not the potentially code-crashing 23:59:60, but a perfectly rational 00:05:01. This is what my server?s NTP client compares with its internal clock of 00:04:59. NTP's target time is in the future, so there is no risk of going back in time. NTP gradually increments the local time to converge on NTP?s time. In the alternative case of a negative leap second, following the NTP clock discipline algorithm, the NTP client amortizes the one-second reverse jump, specifically in order to avoid setting the clock backward: the local time will be gradually adjusted again via the clock discipline algorithm until local and NTP times converge. Although the offset is more than the 125ms step threshold, stepping a full one second backward is still statistically unlikely. It may be that I?ve misread the NTP specification in RPC-5905 and its antecedents, as well as the leap second historical records of problems. But the disabling-NTP-prior-to-leap workaround seems to bypass all the documented leap-second live lock hangs and other bugs.. -mel On Jun 22, 2015, at 4:06 PM, Harlan Stenn <stenn () ntp org<mailto:stenn () ntp org>> wrote: Doug Barton writes: This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) On 6/19/15 2:58 PM, Harlan Stenn wrote: Bad idea. When restarting ntpd your clocks will likely be off by a second, which will cause a backward step, which will force the problem you claim to be avoiding. There are plenty of ways to solve this problem, and you just get to choose what you want to risk/pay. You misunderstand the problem. :) The problem is not "clock skips backward one second," because most of the time that's not what happens. The problem is that most software does not handle it well when the clock ticks ... :59 :60 :00 instead of ticking directly from :59 to :00. POSIX NEVER shows :60. THAT problem is avoided by temporarily turning off NTP and then turning it back on again when "the coast is clear." Most software can handle the "clock skips forward or backwards one second" problem fairly robustly,= and as Baldur pointed out by doing the reset in a controlled manner you greatly reduce your overall risk. Time going backwards is deadly to a number of applications. But apparently not to applications you care about. You're also not doing anything where somebody is going to get sued because a timestamp is off by a second. There are people for whom this is a very real risk. H ------------------------------ Message: 37 Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 07:46:50 +0000 From: Harlan Stenn <stenn () ntp org> To: Mel Beckman <mel () beckman org> Cc: Harlan Stenn <stenn () ntp org>, Doug Barton <dougb () dougbarton us>, "<nanog () nanog org>" <nanog () nanog org> Subject: Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND Message-ID: <E1Z7Iuw-000MPN-Lx () stenn ntp org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII This stuff can make my head explode. When a leap second is added, like on 30 June 2015 at the last second of the day, POSIX insists that the day still have 86400 seconds in it. This makes the day longer by one second, so time has to either slow down or move backwards. The "dumb" way to do this is to step the clock back by 1 second at the instant before the stroke of midnight. The allegedly better way to do this would be to stop the clock a bit before midnight, and hold the time for 1 second. To continue providing monotonic time, every time somebody says "what time is it" during that holding period one would want to bump the time by the smallest amount possible, usually 1 nanosecond (assuming the kernel keeps time in nanoseconds). Ideally you wouldn't want to add enough nanoseconds to cause the clock to roll over into the next day "too early". But apparently nobody has implemented this, even though Prof. Mills described it in RFC-i-forget about 20 years ago. This is mostly because POSIX deals with absolute time and not relative time. In the unlikely event of a leap second deletion, there would be no 23:59:59, so when the clock is about to strike 23:59:59 it's OK to add an extra second to the clock to effectively have the time "jump" from 23:59:58 to 00:00:00. This is still a monotonic increment in time. Whatever you decide to do, I recommend you actually test it out to see if it behaves the way you think it will. You have a whole week still. H ------------------------------ Message: 38 Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 09:44:40 +0100 (BST) From: Tim Franklin <tim () pelican org> To: NANOG <nanog () nanog org> Subject: Re: Residential VSAT experiences? Message-ID: <1732312919.8922.1435049080582.JavaMail.zimbra () pelican org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Interesting that you say that about sip. We had a client that would use it for sip on ships all the time. It wasn't the best but it worked. Ping times were between 500-700ms.
It really depends on your expectations - or more to the point, your end-users' expectations. I've tested SIP in the lab up to 2000ms RTT. The protocols all hang together and keep working, but it's obviously very much in walkie-talkie mode, you can't hold a normal duplex conversation. 500ms there's more of the talking over each other / "sorry, you go" / "no, you go" dance, but it *is* workable. If your end-user is expecting land-line replacement though... Regards, Tim. ------------------------------ Message: 39 Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 09:25:32 +0000 From: Mel Beckman <mel () beckman org> To: Harlan Stenn <stenn () ntp org> Cc: "<nanog () nanog org>" <nanog () nanog org> Subject: Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND Message-ID: <19968E2F-A487-49C1-887B-42C663DB95FB () beckman org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Harlan, Why should your head explode? Possibly you?re overthinking the problem. And there is no reason (or simple way I can envision) to test my plan, as you advise, in advance. I will just block NTP in my border router temporarily. No need to make a mountain out of this molehill. Cisco, and many other NTP client gear vendors, recommend this approach, and they?ve published extensive research on the matter. -mel
On Jun 23, 2015, at 12:46 AM, Harlan Stenn <stenn () ntp org> wrote: This stuff can make my head explode. When a leap second is added, like on 30 June 2015 at the last second of the day, POSIX insists that the day still have 86400 seconds in it. This makes the day longer by one second, so time has to either slow down or move backwards. The "dumb" way to do this is to step the clock back by 1 second at the instant before the stroke of midnight. The allegedly better way to do this would be to stop the clock a bit before midnight, and hold the time for 1 second. To continue providing monotonic time, every time somebody says "what time is it" during that holding period one would want to bump the time by the smallest amount possible, usually 1 nanosecond (assuming the kernel keeps time in nanoseconds). Ideally you wouldn't want to add enough nanoseconds to cause the clock to roll over into the next day "too early". But apparently nobody has implemented this, even though Prof. Mills described it in RFC-i-forget about 20 years ago. This is mostly because POSIX deals with absolute time and not relative time. In the unlikely event of a leap second deletion, there would be no 23:59:59, so when the clock is about to strike 23:59:59 it's OK to add an extra second to the clock to effectively have the time "jump" from 23:59:58 to 00:00:00. This is still a monotonic increment in time. Whatever you decide to do, I recommend you actually test it out to see if it behaves the way you think it will. You have a whole week still. H
------------------------------ Message: 40 Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 11:24:43 +0100 From: Nick Hilliard <nick () foobar org> To: nanog () nanog org Subject: Re: REMINDER: LEAP SECOND Message-ID: <558933EB.6000201 () foobar org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On 23/06/2015 10:25, Mel Beckman wrote:
Why should your head explode? Possibly you?re overthinking the problem.
The problems don't relate to Harlan overthinking the problem. They relate to developers underthinking the problem and assuming that all clocks are monotonic and that certain rules apply, e.g. that there are 60 seconds in a minute, 86400 seconds in a day and so forth. Mostly applications are not time sensitive, but sometimes they are. When they are, and when the developer assumes something which isn't true, unexpected things might happen. assert()s can be triggered, time synchronisation lost with third party applications, unexpected and untested code paths could be used, etc. Blocking NTP at the NTP edge will probably work fine for most situations. Bear in mind that your NTP edge is not necessarily the same as your network edge. E.g. you might have internal GPS / radio sources which could unexpectedly inject the leap second. The larger the network, the more likely this is to happen. Most organisations have network fossils and ntp is an excellent source of these. I.e. systems which work away for years without any problems before one day accidentally triggering meltdown because some developer didn't understand the subtleties of clock monotonicity. Nick End of NANOG Digest, Vol 89, Issue 24 *************************************
Current thread:
- RE: NANOG Digest, Vol 89, Issue 24 Alex Hardie (Jun 23)
- Re: NANOG Digest, Vol 89, Issue 24 Harlan Stenn (Jun 23)