RE: Verizon Public Policy on Netflix

["Naslund, Steve" <SNaslund () medline com>]

Here we go down the rabbit hole again.  This is not difficult.  An Internet Service Provider is an entity that provides 
Internet connectivity to its customers for some consideration.  

If you are looking for a legal definition of an ISP you are not going to find (a satisfactory) one.  The FCC does have 
specific rules that define carriers such as ILEC, CLEC, RLEC, and those have definitions.  ISP is really a term that 
describes a line of business.  There is no engineering definition of an ISP that is defined by any regulatory body that 
I am aware of.

No, you don't need an AS number to be an ISP (or your own address space).  In my early Internet days I was the ISP who 
sold service to a cable tv company who in turn sold internet service to their customers.  I was the ISP to the cable 
company and they were the ISP to their customers.  If you send money to someone to provide you with internet service, 
they are an ISP.  Does not matter who manages the infrastructure or if their entire network was leased out.

You can get into all the semantics about who is a "real ISP" but in the view of the public and most regulators, the ISP 
is the guy selling Internet access and that's it.

Steven Naslund
Chicago IL


-----Original Message-----
From: NANOG [mailto:nanog-bounces () nanog org] On Behalf Of Matthew Petach
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2014 4:40 PM
To: Scott Helms
Cc: NANOG
Subject: Re: Verizon Public Policy on Netflix

On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 12:52 PM, Scott Helms <khelms () zcorum com> wrote:

> Matt,
>
> No one said anything of the sort and now you're trying to redirect.  
> You said, "There *are* some fundamental basics that are necessary to 
> function as an ISP; having an AS number and being able to speak BGP 
> are pretty much at the top of the list."  This is false, that's all I 
> said nothing less and nothing more.
>
> I never made any statement about this list nor do you hear very many 
> of the folks who work at those companies on here.  My company has 
> several ASNs for both historical and operational reasons, all I am 
> pointing out is that you're taking a more limited view of what an ISP 
> is in an eyeball network context and that view is inaccurate.
Scott,

I think the problem here is one of terminology, then.
You seem to be discussing "ISP" as a business model; I'm talking about "ISP" as a network entity.  Regardless of your 
business model, from the network perspective, if you do not have an AS number, you don't exist as a separate entity.

So, I will grant you that you can print business cards that list you as an ISP without having an AS number.  But from 
the perspective of the network, you don't exist as a separate entity; the only "ISP" involved in routing those packets 
from the perspective of the BGP-speaking core of the internet is your upstream.

I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on this topic, as it's all just a matter of how we define what an ISP is.

Thanks!

Matt


> Scott Helms
> Vice President of Technology
> ZCorum
> (678) 507-5000
> --------------------------------
> http://twitter.com/kscotthelms
> --------------------------------
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 3:42 PM, Matthew Petach 
> <mpetach () netflight com>
> wrote:
>
> > I'm sorry.  This is a networking mailing list, not a 
> > feel-good-about-yourself mailing list.  From the perspective of the 
> > internet routing table, if you don't have your own AS number, you are
> > completely indistinguishable from your upstream.   Period.  As far as BGP
> > is concerned, you don't exist.  Only the upstream ISP exists.
> >
> > Matt
> >  On Jul 11, 2014 12:33 PM, "Scott Helms" <khelms () zcorum com> wrote:
> >
> > > Matt,
> > >
> > > They're providing DSL, cable modem, BWA, or FTTx access to 
> > > residential and business customers.  They belong to various service 
> > > provider associations and they're generally the only ISPs in the areas they serve.
> > >  They're ISPs by every definition including the FCC's.  Having an 
> > > ASN does _not_ make you an ISP as most of the organizations that 
> > > have one are not, nor would they class themselves that way.
> > >
> > >
> > > Scott Helms
> > > Vice President of Technology
> > > ZCorum
> > > (678) 507-5000
> > > --------------------------------
> > > http://twitter.com/kscotthelms
> > > --------------------------------
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 2:55 PM, Matthew Petach 
> > > <mpetach () netflight com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Sure.  We call those companies "resellers".  Or, if they actually 
> > > > do bring some additional value to the table, they're VARs.  Not ISPs.
> > > >
> > > > Matt
> > > > On Jul 11, 2014 10:37 AM, "Scott Helms" <khelms () zcorum com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Matt,
> > > > >
> > > > > That's simply not true, if it were then several million US 
> > > > > subscribers wouldn't have access to the Internet at all.  There 
> > > > > are _lots_ of small providers that serve rural America (and 
> > > > > Canada) that have gotten their IPs from their transit provider 
> > > > > rather than ARIN, are single homed, and have never considered getting an ASN because it doesn't do anything for 
> > > > > them.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Scott Helms
> > > > > Vice President of Technology
> > > > > ZCorum
> > > > > (678) 507-5000
> > > > > --------------------------------
> > > > > http://twitter.com/kscotthelms
> > > > > --------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Fri, Jul 11, 2014 at 12:31 PM, Matthew Petach < 
> > > > > mpetach () netflight com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Jul 10, 2014 at 8:46 PM, Jima <nanog () jima us> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > [...]
> > > > > > >  I guess I'm just glad that my home ISP can justify anteing up 
> > > > > > > for
> > > > > > a pipe
> > > > > > > to SIX, resources for hosting OpenConnect nodes, and, for that
> > > > > > matter, an
> > > > > > > ASN.  Indeed, not everyone can.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >      Jima
> > > > > > I'm sorry.
> > > > > > If your ISP doesn't have an ASN,
> > > > > > it's not an ISP.  Full stop.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There *are* some fundamental basics that are necessary to 
> > > > > > function as an ISP; having an AS number and being able to speak 
> > > > > > BGP are pretty much at the top of the list.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If you cannot manage to obtain and support an AS number as an 
> > > > > > ISP, it is probably time to consider closing up shop and finding 
> > > > > > another line of work.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Matt