Interesting People mailing list archives
Re: Madness: Bailing Out Greed in Wonderland
From: David Farber <dave () farber net>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 04:47:36 -0400
Begin forwarded message: From: Vadim Antonov <avg () kotovnik com> Date: September 18, 2008 10:34:02 PM EDT To: David Farber <dave () farber net> Cc: ip <ip () v2 listbox com> Subject: Re: [IP] Re: Madness: Bailing Out Greed in WonderlandDave - I wholeheartedly agree that there's a need to filter out PR and BS.
To that effect I would like to ask for an opportunity to offer answers to
some objections raised in follow-up posts.
From: "David P. Reed" <dpreed () reed com> "Every case" "conclusively shown" ? I'd like a citation on that one.
The relevant works are: "Markets Don't Fail!" by Brian P. Simpson, Lexington Books, 2005 (the author is Professor of economics in NationalUniversity, CA); "The Half-Life of Policy Rationales" by Fred Foldvary and
Dan Klein, NYU Press, 2003 (Foldvary is a lecturer in economic at SantaClara Univerity, and Klein is Associate Professor there); and, of course,
the seminal "Man, Economy and State" by Murray N. Rothbard (esp. chapter10, "Monopoly and Competition"), and his "Power and Market" (esp. chapter
4, "Triangular Intervention") for theoretical exposition of concept of market failure. I probably should rephrase my statement (preserving its meaning): every empirical case offered so far as an example of real-world market failure was found to be deficient according to standard scientific criteria of acceptance (such as lack of highly plausible alternative interpretations and/or direct evidence contradicting the offered interpretation).
From: "Dave Wilson" <dave () wilson net> "There are many examples cited by economists as examples of market failure."
"Cited by", note the hearsay rather than direct specific evidence.
"For instance, traffic congestion is considered an example, since driving can impose hidden costs on other drivers and society,"
This example is funny because transportation infrastructure can hardly be
claimed to operate in anything resembling a free market. It is either public or very heavily regulated. "Can impose hidden costs" does not on its own mean that there's a market failure (I'll come to the definition of the term later).
"whereas use of public transportation or other ways of avoiding drivingwould be more beneficial to society as a whole."
This, of course, also has "hidden" (or, to be more precise, conveniently ignored) costs on other drivers and non-drivers - namely, taxes.The problem with stating that something is "more beneficial to society as a whole" is that this assumes existence of a metric of societal goodness, as accepted by all members of said society. (Obviously my idea of what is good "for the society" is quite different from authors' - and why should I
accept their implied claim that their metric is better than mine?)
"Other common examples of market failure include environmental problemssuch as pollution or overexploitation of natural resources."
Pollution is, basically, poisoning of some people by others. The problem with pollution is not in the failure of market to deal with commons, butrather in failure of government monopoly on justice and law enforcement to
provide protection to the rights of the people. Overexploitation of natural resources is a case of tragedy of commons - which requires creation of commons in the first place (for example, by restriction on privatization of land and said resources).
From: James Grimmelmann <james () grimmelmann net> I should like to purchase a passenger pigeon. Can you please direct me to where one can be found for sale? Since, as you say, there have been no documented cases of market failure in the history of humankind, the market for passenger pigeons is presumably functioning well and they can be obtained at a competitive price.
Market is a mechanism for efficient allocation of resources, it is not a magic wish fulfillment machine. It definitely does not prevent speciesfrom becoming extinct (neither does government regulation - the hunting of
pigeons was prohibited in 1897, with no effect). By the way, the modern accounts tend to blame loss of habitat (a.k.a. "economic development needed to sustain growing human population") and Newcastle disease virus as main culprits in the pigeon disappearance rather than hunting. A less romantic interpretation of this extinction is simply that it is evolution in action - the species which couldn't adapt to the changing environment gave way to more successful cousins. The last time I checked there was no shortage of other species of Columbidae all over the world. Finally, the definition of "market failure" is "persistent failure to allocate resources efficiently". The fact that some specific kind of resource became unavailable does not constitute market failure. To summarise: I made a specific claim, which can be easily refuted by providing a single piece of specific empirical data (which would be specific date(s), place(s), and circumstances of a clear-cut marketfailure). Non-existence of phenomena cannot be proven, it is the existence which has to be proven, at least according to usual criteria of scientific
inquiry. --vadim ------------------------------------------- Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/247/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/247/ Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Current thread:
- Re: Madness: Bailing Out Greed in Wonderland, (continued)
- Re: Madness: Bailing Out Greed in Wonderland David Farber (Sep 17)
- Re: Madness: Bailing Out Greed in Wonderland David Farber (Sep 17)
- Re: Madness: Bailing Out Greed in Wonderland David Farber (Sep 17)
- Re: Madness: Bailing Out Greed in Wonderland David Farber (Sep 17)
- Re: Madness: Bailing Out Greed in Wonderland David Farber (Sep 17)
- Re: Madness: Bailing Out Greed in Wonderland David Farber (Sep 17)
- Re: Madness: Bailing Out Greed in Wonderland David Farber (Sep 18)
- Re: Madness: Bailing Out Greed in Wonderland David Farber (Sep 18)
- Re: Madness: Bailing Out Greed in Wonderland David Farber (Sep 18)
- Re: Madness: Bailing Out Greed in Wonderland David Farber (Sep 18)
- Re: Madness: Bailing Out Greed in Wonderland David Farber (Sep 19)
- Re: Madness: Bailing Out Greed in Wonderland David Farber (Sep 22)
- Re: Madness: Bailing Out Greed in Wonderland David Farber (Sep 22)
- Re: Madness: Bailing Out Greed in Wonderland David Farber (Sep 22)
- Re: Madness: Bailing Out Greed in Wonderland David Farber (Sep 23)