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Re: RATHER DEFINITIVE -- Most think founders wanted Christian USA
From: David Farber <dave () farber net>
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 09:51:53 -0400
Begin forwarded message: From: "John S. Quarterman" <jsq () quarterman org> Date: September 15, 2007 9:48:55 AM EDT To: dave () farber netCc: jsq () quarterman org, dewayne-net () warpspeed com, ken.dipietro () advantaq com, mfidelman () meetinghouse net
Subject: Re: [IP] Re: Most think founders wanted Christian USA For IP: It's useful to have the facts handy when talking to anybody who believes such things."As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and,
as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."--Article 11, Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States
and the Bey and Subjects of the Bey of Tripoli of Barbary, 'Authored by American diplomat Joel Barlow in 1796, the following treaty was sent to the floor of the Senate, June 7, 1797, where it was read aloud in its entirety and unanimously approved. John Adams, having seen the treaty, signed it and proudly proclaimed it to the Nation.' http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example
of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this eventas an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the
American governments is at present little known or regarded either inEurope or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It
will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service hadinterviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of
Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring inmerchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses."
--John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" (1787-88) Thomas Jefferson had this written on his tombstone: HERE WAS BURIED THOMAS JEFFERSON AUTHOR OF THE DECLARATION OF AMERICAN INDEPENDENCE OF THE STATUTE OF VIRGINIA FOR RELIGIOUS FREEDOM AND FATHER OF THE UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA BORN APRIL 2, 1743 O.S. DIED JULY 4. 1826 "Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from theplan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend,
within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, theChristian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."
--Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, re Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom
http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff1650.htm Here's the text of the U.S. Constitution in a variety of handy formats: http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/5 It never mentions God or deity. It mentions religion only twice, in Article VI clause 3: "The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but noreligious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office
or public Trust under the United States." And in the First Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" The founders meant what they wrote.
From: Miles Fidelman <mfidelman () meetinghouse net> Date: September 14, 2007 7:36:25 AM EDT
...
Apparently, the argument over whether we're a Christian country or not goes all the way back to the founding fathers, and the first few administrations - where the point of view flip-flopped from President to President.
Yes, there were always people who wanted the U.S. to be a Christian nation, by which they meant to have a Christian government, and some who tried to make out that it was and that the founders meant it to be. They were wrong then and they're still wrong now. Actually, not a single one of the first seven presidents was a Christian in the sense most people then accepted (believer in the Trinity, member of a church, and partaker of communion): <blockquote> The Rev. Dr. Wilson, who was almost a contemporary of our earlier statesmen and presidents, and who thoroughly investigated the subject of their religious beliefs, in his sermon already mentioned affirmed that the founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels, and that of the presidents who had thus far been elected -- George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, John Quincy Adams,and Andrew Jackson -- not one had professed a belief in Christianity. From
this sermon I quote the following: <em> "When the war was over and the victory over our enemies won, and the blessings and happiness of liberty and peace were secured, the Constitution was framed and God was neglected. He was not merely forgotten. He was absolutely voted out of the Constitution. The proceedings, as published by Thompson, the secretary, and the history ofthe day, show that the question was gravely debated whether God should be in the Constitution or not, and, after a solemn debate he was deliberately voted out of it. ... There is not only in the theory of our government no
recognition of God's laws and sovereignty, but its practical operation, its administration, has been conformable to its theory. Those who have been called to administer the government have not been men making any public profession of Christianity. ... Washington was a man of valor and wisdom. He was esteemed by the whole world as a great and good man; but he was not a professing Christian." </em> </blockquote> --Six Historic Americans, George Washington, by John E. Remsburg, 1906http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/john_remsburg/ six_historic_americans/chapter_3.html
When the Senate unanimously approved the Tripoli Treaty, Andrew Jackson was a Senator from Tennessee, Thomas Jefferson was Vice President and thus President of the Senate, and John Adams signed the treaty as President. This link has details on how God was voted out of the Constitution: http://candst.tripod.com/testban2.htm Note that it was Sam Adams, not John Adams, who objected to the prohibition on religious tests. John Adams, Ben Franklin, and James Madison are clearly on record as being for the prohibition on religious tests, and Washington was the chair of the Constitutional Convention that passed it. Madison was also one of the people most active in getting the Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom passed, which Jefferson wrote. There you have the first four presidents and Andy Jackson. The rest aren't much more difficult to track down on this subject. The first seven (actually, apparently at least the first 19) presidents were all for a secular Republic and weren't even Christians themselves. -jsq "I could not do otherwise without transcending the limits prescribedby the Constitution for the President and without feeling that I might
in some degree disturb the security which religion nowadays enjoys inthis country in its complete separation from the political concerns of
the General Government." --U.S. President Andrew Jackson, 12 June 1832, letter to the Synod of the Reformed Church of North America, explaining his refusal of their request that he proclaim a "day of fasting, humiliation, and prayer." http://www.adherents.com/people/pj/Andrew_Jackson.html ------------------------------------------- Archives: http://v2.listbox.com/member/archive/247/=now RSS Feed: http://v2.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/247/ Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
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