Re: We probably didn't need the fifth amendment anyway, we weren't really using it

[David Farber <dave () farber net>]

Begin forwarded message:

From: Victor Marks <victormarks () gmail com>
Date: July 20, 2007 5:04:23 PM EDT
To: dave () farber net
Cc: ip () v2 listbox com
Subject: Re: [IP] We probably didn't need the fifth amendment anyway,  
we weren't really using it

Hi Dave,

For IP if you so desire.

The standards in the Executive Order is that the property of a person  
may be blocked if the person has

> committed, or to pose a significant risk of committing, an act or  
> acts of violence that have the purpose or effect of:
>
> (A) threatening the peace or stability of Iraq or the Government of  
> Iraq; or
>
> (B) undermining efforts to promote economic reconstruction and  
> political reform in Iraq or to provide humanitarian assistance to  
> the Iraqi people;
>
> (ii) to have materially assisted, sponsored, or provided financial,  
> material, logistical, or technical support for, or goods or  
> services in support of, such an act or acts of violence or any  
> person whose property and interests in property are blocked  
> pursuant to this order; or

And so on - here, the person has to have committed some act. This is  
less reprehensible than what is known in the US as civil forfeiture  
law. That act has to be in support of violence or destabilization of  
the government in Iraq.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-179es.html

discusses civil forfeiture law, and how it has been used in the US.  
So this isn't the first time that the government has decided to  
concern itself with property and how to skirt what we may consider  
due process.

"Under federal law the government can seize property based solely  
upon probable cause to believe that the property was used unlawfully.  
This probable cause standard for seizure allows the government to  
dispossess property owners based only upon hearsay or  
innuendo--"evidence" of insufficient reliability to be admissible in  
a court of law. The probable cause standard relieves the government  
of the burden of proving anyone's criminal guilt to obtain a  
forfeiture judgment over his property.
Perhaps the greatest advantage the forfeiture laws provide for law  
enforcement officials lies, paradoxically, in the fact that their  
legal justification simply defies logic. When asked to justify the  
extraordinary powers granted to them by such laws, law enforcement  
officials find themselves invoking peculiar legal fictions that date  
back to feudal times or earlier, wherein inanimate objects are given  
life and then forfeited to the government for "their" criminal  
misconduct. "



I find the latter more offensive than the former, particularly with  
relation to the 5th Amendment.



Regards,

Victor Marks




On Jul 20, 2007, at 4:29 PM, David Farber wrote:

> Begin forwarded message:
>
> From: dewayne () warpspeed com (Dewayne Hendricks)
> Date: July 20, 2007 4:37:40 AM EDT
> To: Dewayne-Net Technology List <xyzzy () warpspeed com>
> Subject: [Dewayne-Net] We probably didn't need the fifth amendment  
> anyway, we weren't really using it
>
> [Note:  This item comes from reader Ken DiPietro.  DLH]
>
> From: Ken DiPietro <ken.dipietro () advantaq com>
> Date: July 19, 2007 12:53:13 PM PDT
> To: Dewayne Hendricks <dewayne () warpspeed com>
> Subject: We probably didn't need the fifth amendment anyway, we  
> weren't really using it.
>
> Amendment V -
>
> "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise  
> infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand  
> Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in  
> the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public  
> danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be  
> twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in  
> any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived  
> of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor  
> shall private property be taken for public use, without just  
> compensation."
>
>
>
> Executive Order: Blocking Property of Certain Persons Who Threaten  
> Stabilization Efforts in Iraq
>
> Message to the Congress of the United States Regarding  
> International Emergency Economic Powers Act
>
> By the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and  
> the laws of the United States of America, including the  
> International Emergency Economic Powers Act, as amended (50 U.S.C.  
> 1701 et seq.)(IEEPA), the National Emergencies Act (50 U.S.C. 1601  
> et seq.)(NEA), and section 301 of title 3, United States Code,
>
> I, GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States of America, find  
> that, due to the unusual and extraordinary threat to the national  
> security and foreign policy of the United States posed by acts of  
> violence threatening the peace and stability of Iraq and  
> undermining efforts to promote economic reconstruction and  
> political reform in Iraq and to provide humanitarian assistance to  
> the Iraqi people, it is in the interests of the United States to  
> take additional steps with respect to the national emergency  
> declared in Executive Order 13303 of May 22, 2003, and expanded in  
> Executive Order 13315 of August 28, 2003, and relied upon for  
> additional steps taken in Executive Order 13350 of July 29, 2004,  
> and Executive Order 13364 of November 29, 2004. I hereby order:
>
> Section 1. (a) Except to the extent provided in section 203(b)(1),  
> (3), and (4) of IEEPA (50 U.S.C. 1702(b)(1), (3), and (4)), or in  
> regulations, orders, directives, or licenses that may be issued  
> pursuant to this order, and notwithstanding any contract entered  
> into or any license or permit granted prior to the date of this  
> order, all property and interests in property of the following  
> persons, that are in the United States, that hereafter come within  
> the United States, or that are or hereafter come within the  
> possession or control of United States persons, are blocked and may  
> not be transferred, paid, exported,
>
> withdrawn, or otherwise dealt in: any person determined by the  
> Secretary of the Treasury, in consultation with the Secretary of  
> State and the Secretary of Defense,
>
> (i) to have committed, or to pose a significant risk of committing,  
> an act or acts of violence that have the purpose or effect of:
>
> (A) threatening the peace or stability of Iraq or the Government of  
> Iraq; or
>
> (B) undermining efforts to promote economic reconstruction and  
> political reform in Iraq or to provide humanitarian assistance to  
> the Iraqi people;
>
> (ii) to have materially assisted, sponsored, or provided financial,  
> material, logistical, or technical support for, or goods or  
> services in support of, such an act or acts of violence or any  
> person whose property and interests in property are blocked  
> pursuant to this order; or
>
> (iii) to be owned or controlled by, or to have acted or purported  
> to act for or on behalf of, directly or indirectly, any person  
> whose property and interests in property are blocked pursuant to  
> this order.
>
> (b) The prohibitions in subsection (a) of this section include, but  
> are not limited to, (i) the making of any contribution or provision  
> of funds, goods, or services by, to, or for the benefit of any  
> person whose property and interests in property are blocked  
> pursuant to this order, and (ii) the
>
> receipt of any contribution or provision of funds, goods, or  
> services from any such person.
>
> Sec. 2. (a) Any transaction by a United States person or within the  
> United States that evades or avoids, has the purpose
>
> of evading or avoiding, or attempts to violate any of the  
> prohibitions set forth in this order is prohibited.
>
> (b) Any conspiracy formed to violate any of the prohibitions set  
> forth in this order is prohibited.
>
> Sec. 3. For purposes of this order:
>
> (a) the term "person" means an individual or entity;
>
> (b) the term "entity" means a partnership, association, trust,  
> joint venture, corporation, group, subgroup, or other organization;  
> and
>
> (c) the term "United States person" means any United States  
> citizen, permanent resident alien, entity organized under the laws  
> of the United States or any jurisdiction within the United States  
> (including foreign branches), or any person in the United States.
>
> Sec. 4. I hereby determine that the making of donations of the type  
> specified in section 203(b)(2) of IEEPA (50 U.S.C. 1702(b)(2)) by,  
> to, or for the benefit of, any person whose property and interests  
> in property are blocked pursuant to this order would seriously  
> impair my ability to deal with the national emergency declared in  
> Executive Order 13303 and expanded in Executive Order 13315, and I  
> hereby prohibit such donations as provided by section 1 of this order.
>
> Sec. 5. For those persons whose property and interests in property  
> are blocked pursuant to this order who might have a constitutional  
> presence in the United States, I find that, because of the ability  
> to transfer funds or other assets
>
> instantaneously, prior notice to such persons of measures to be  
> taken pursuant to this order would render these measures  
> ineffectual. I therefore determine that for these measures to be  
> effective in addressing the national emergency declared in  
> Executive Order 13303 and expanded in Executive Order 13315, there  
> need be no prior notice of a listing or determination made pursuant  
> to section 1(a) of this order.
>
> Sec. 6. The Secretary of the Treasury, in consultation with the  
> Secretary of State and the Secretary of Defense, is hereby  
> authorized to take such actions, including the promulgation of  
> rules and regulations, and to employ all powers granted to the  
> President by IEEPA as may be necessary to carry out the purposes of  
> this order. The Secretary of the Treasury may redelegate any of  
> these functions to other officers and agencies of the United States  
> Government, consistent with applicable law. All agencies of the  
> United States Government are hereby directed to take all  
> appropriate measures within their authority to carry out the  
> provisions of this order and, where appropriate, to advise the  
> Secretary of the Treasury in a timely manner of the measures taken.
>
> Sec. 7. Nothing in this order is intended to affect the continued  
> effectiveness of any rules, regulations, orders, licenses, or other  
> forms of administrative action issued, taken, or continued in  
> effect heretofore or hereafter under 31 C.F.R. chapter V, except as  
> expressly terminated, modified, or suspended by or pursuant to this  
> order.
>
> Sec. 8. This order is not intended to, and does not, create any  
> right, benefit, or privilege, substantive or procedural,  
> enforceable at law or in equity by any party against the United  
> States, its departments, agencies, instrumentalities, or entities,  
> its officers or employees, or any other person.
>
> GEORGE W. BUSH
>
> THE WHITE HOUSE,
>
> July 17, 2007.
>
>
>
> No, this is not an April Fool's Joke and the full announcement can  
> be found here:
> <http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/07/20070717-3.html?1>
>
>
>
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