read more on Understanding Anti-Americanism

[David Farber <dave () farber net>]

Begin forwarded message:

From: "JFC (Jefsey) Morfin" <jefsey () jefsey com>
Date: August 22, 2004 9:46:48 PM EDT
To: dave () farber net, Ip <ip () v2 listbox com>
Subject: Re: [IP] more on Understanding Anti-Americanism

Dear Dave and IP,
I can totally agree with the comment from Erik Huizer. I will just note 
that as a Dutch he may feel that most of the European Governments 
supported the Iraq mistake. As a French I would remind that "old 
Europe" opposed. We are not proud of it, as we now start feeling that 
Iraq was not only a lack of experience, but a deliberate attempt to 
play the "Killing of the King" game. Last time it lead the USA to Viet 
Nam.

I fully agree that for us USA is the country we most fear. But I would 
like to explain that a little bit.

We fear serveral things. First we fear the future as we see no 
difference between Kerry's and Bush's IQ, lying and flip-floping. Then, 
we see an US Corporations cultural globalization for a global consumer 
market which as no chance to be globally accepted, but we are imposed: 
so we start feeling we all need some fresh air. And that some may want 
to go farther than 9/11, when ethical, souls and religious feelings are 
hurt.  Life is less and less dollar - or any other money - and we are 
afraid some are not understanding it.

Then we are afraid because we know you probably far better than you 
know us, and what happens in your country sounds quite un-American to 
us (very hard for us to think that some Yankees are turning Nazi). We 
certainly understand that the Homeland thing is something we started 
eight or nine centuries ago, which is quite a complex thing to 
integrate in a free society : so we are OK with its tuning bugs.

But we feel that you (US Citizens) are the first afraid ones and that 
you accept them without complaining. This is not fitting our image of 
the American Cow-Boy. So, we know start having in mind a possible 
future : a American Civil War. And we are afraid such a war may become 
global. We are afraid also because we do not understand its rationale 
except the idea that "stability is in war, not in peace", meaning it 
would be only a way for some to stay in charge.

I must say it is a strange feeling. May be it is the end of WWII : we 
just discovered that the USA are just another country in the world. Not 
"the USA" we were used to share with, to know sometimes better than our 
own. The shock is that we discovered that _they_had_to_ lie and cheat 
and that the world was accepting it, knowing tag it was lies and 
cheating. Also that Bush has killed more people in Iraq than Saddam. So 
who is next ?

Also for those who are interested/ (and many start being, as the 
"Yankee issue" becomes a more and more studied one), New American 
Century, Skull and Bones, Brown Brother, Harimann history, new elements 
on Dallas shouting, etc. etc. are preoccupying tales. They are 
preoccupying because they do not sound "American", but we start 
learning they are, and for a very long. "Six days in May" or "The days 
of the Condor" ....

Anti-Americanism? No. Fear of America, no.
Fear of having to fight you, because you are wrong. Yes.
Very odd.
jfc morfin







At 19:11 22/08/2004, David Farber wrote:



> Begin forwarded message:
>
> From: Erik Huizer <huizer () cs uu nl>
> Date: August 22, 2004 7:12:56 AM EDT
> To: dave () farber net
> Subject: Re: [IP] Understanding Anti-Americanism
>
> Dave,
>
> I really have problems with this view of anti-Americanism. Of course 
> the rest of the world deals with stereotypes of the USA, distributed 
> mainly by your own movie and TV industry. However that is exactly the 
> same for any other country. Everyone ouside my country seems to 
> believe we live behind Dikes and walk on wooden shoes and are very 
> tolerant towards drugs. Most countries in the world, including the USA 
> assume that the Netherlands is the root of all drug-evil.
>
> On average those stereotype misgivings balance out and do not create a 
> real feeling of anti-country in any respect. Until Bush came into 
> office the Netherlands and its inhabitants were real pro-American. Teh 
> USA was at the top of the list of nations considered most-friendly.
>
> Even before 9/11 the USA had slipped down that list. Bush turned 
> Clintons decision about the Kyoto protocol upside down, and that hurt 
> (Dutch care very much about the environment). Then Bush opposed the 
> internetional court of law for war crimes established in my country. 
> He even went as far as to adopt a ruling that the USA can invade the 
> Netherlands at any time to free US soldiers that would be on trial 
> before that court. (The reasoning being that US soldiers do not ever 
> commit war crimes, yeah right).
>
> As you can imagine, being the only country in the world where the 
> US-president now has a carte-blanche for attack does not help to 
> increase popularity. The US tumbled down the list of most friendly 
> countries and entered on the list of most feared countries.
>
> 9/11 reversed that. There was a lot of sympathy over here and people 
> really grieved with your countrymen over what happened. We supported 
> the anti-terrorism plans. But then bit by bit we saw things happening 
> that again reversed everything: the protection of the American steel 
> market (against WTO agreement),  the Patriot act and (probably 
> somewhat a stereotype, but still...) the perception of the Americans 
> dealing away freedom for safety. The horror stories of non-US 
> travellers boarding planes to/from the US. The war on Iraq, which we 
> were unsure about (remember that almost all European governments 
> supported Bush in his attack on Iraq, but 90% (!) of the population of 
> Europe (including teh UK) was against it). Then the llack of weapons 
> of mass-destruction, the uncovering of lies, untruth etc.
>
> All that has instilled a lot of anti-Americanism and has made the US 
> now number one of the list of most feared nations.
>
> However, bad as that may be, it is not all bad. Most people in Europe 
> I believe know that this anti-Americanism is directed against politics 
> and government. We know too many Americans personally to be able to 
> dislike the American people (on the contrary). We also realise that 
> Europe still is not a unity that is able to effectively respond to 
> world-crisis, and we need the US to do that.
>
> So there is a lot of anti-Americanism in Europe, but it is not just 
> based on stereotypes and it is also not so deep that it is harmful 
> (yet). However it is certainly due to developments ofver the past 
> three years, to think otherwise is unrealistic.
>
> Erik Huizer
> University of Utrecht
> The Netherlands
>
> --On zaterdag 21 augustus 2004 16:42 -0400 David Farber 
> <dave () farber net> wrote:
>
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > From: "Stephen D. Poe" <sdpoe () acm org>
> > Date: August 21, 2004 4:38:24 PM EDT
> > To: Dave Farber <dave () farber net>
> > Subject: Understanding Anti-Americanism
> > Reply-To: sdpoe () acm org
> >
> >                UNDERSTANDING ANTI-AMERICANISM
> >
> >                        by Barry Rubin
>
> -------------------------------------
> You are subscribed as jefsey () jefsey com
> To manage your subscription, go to
>  http://v2.listbox.com/member/?listname=ip
>
> Archives at: 
> http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 19/08/2004

-------------------------------------
You are subscribed as interesting-people () lists elistx com
To manage your subscription, go to
 http://v2.listbox.com/member/?listname=ip

Archives at: http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/