IP: Cook report interview with your editor -- Dave Farber

[Dave Farber <farber () central cis upenn edu>]

DAVE FARBER FINDS ROLE FOR ILPF IF IT DOES NOT TRY TO 


ASSERT OVER-ALL GOVERNING AUTHORITY


 


LAUDS ISOC's NEW RELATIONSHIP WITH IETF, IAB, IANA




Editor's Note: Dave Farber, a board member of the Internet 


Society, and Electronic Frontier Foundation and professor at the 


University of Pennsylvania should need little introduction to 


readers of the COOK Report. We interviewed him on July 15 in the 


midst of the governance wars.




COOK Report: How do you see this issue of governance shaking 


out?




Farber: There really is no governing authority in the Internet. 


When you speak of the control of the net, the situation that we 


have now is that there are a whole set of organizations that see 


reason to declare themselves as the entity that controls the 


Internet.




COOK Report: We certainly have a vacuum of power and 


questioning of fundamental authority.




Farber: I don't think any one entity has any fundamental 


authority except as passed to it by the willingness of people to 


cooperate with it.




COOK Report: You are referring to that very ephemeral thing 


known as the "support of the Internet community"?




Farber: Yes. I think it comes from a whole set of sometimes 


cultural things. It has taken a long long time for the ISOC, IAB, 


IETF, and the IANA to learn how to live together.




COOK Report: This is the cluster of organizations that has the 


general support of the community, is it not?




Farber: Well it certainly has the support of the people who keep 


the roads going.  And the people who make the roads go are 


willing, after much pain, to live in a structure where ISOC is the 


nominal head. Note that I use the term nominal very carefully. 


ISOC provides a locus with no attempt at management. There is an 


agreement on this that has been recently welded together by the 


POISED working group of the IETF.  ISOC is to provide certain 


funding and legal protection. The agreement is a combination of 


formal agreements via an RFC and among the leadership of ISOC 


and the IAB. Remember that for some time the ISOC has 


essentially nominally taken the IAB under its wing and IETF has 


now come under its corporate shell. I think these agreements are 


operationally tolerable.




COOK Report: So what you have described here is really the 


governing structure that we have now. It is one that we would not 


like to see frivolously overturned. But what is your take on the 


elements that are stepping forward from outside this realm?




Farber: I think there are going to be a lot of players. Some will be 


more serious than others. To be serious you have to accomplish 


real things rather than just have meetings where people come 


together. You have to be able to create things that the community 


accepts.




COOK Report: When Tony Rutkowski wants to get the ILPF to have 


this Global Notice of Inquiry on domain names, we wonder if that 


is not his way of trying to hand the ILPF a solid accomplishment?




Farber:  Let me put it this way. I am willing to live in the same 


world with the ILPF when it accomplishes something. If they can 


accomplish something that is accepted by the community, 


welcome aboard. Let me give you and example from another 


arena. For all of the friction we have had, in practice now EPIC, 


CDT, EFF and a whole bunch of other people live in the same 


world.  Sometimes they share; sometimes they cooperate; and 


sometimes they do their own thing.  In spite of all their 


differences there is a remarkable willingness to get together for a 


common goal.




Let's look at the world from the point of view of organization and 


people issues.  Organizationally the ILPF is young. They are 


coming at it from a very difficult position. They are basically a 


bunch of lawyers who in fact could be very useful, if they can 


collaborate with other organizations. If anybody insists on being 


THE organization, it is not going to work. I don't think ISOC will be 


THE organization. Perhaps there may be some central organization 


that acts as the coordinating committee for the network, but such 


a committee will have very little real power.




There will be groups that form with a particular direction. CIX will 


point in one direction. ILPF will head in another direction. ISOC 


has largely tended to be the technology people and those people 


who build national networks. If the ILPF can put itself in a 


position where it doesn't have to lead and be instead part of a set 


of players along with the CIX, ISOC and others whose goal it is to 


advance networking, I think that it will work. If they produce 


something of value to the community and don't insist on being 


THE leader, they will be accepted. If they want to be THE leader, 


they will self destruct and maybe take other things down with 


them causing chaos in the entire ISOC, IAB, IETF arena. It would 


be self destructive, not just damaging to others. I think, if they 


could take a positive point of view, and say: we are but one of a 


number of interested organizations, and, by the way, our specialty 


is law and the focus of law within the Internet that they could 


make a major contribution. Certainly the focus of ISOC, IETF, and 


CIX is not law. Because there is no Internet law it would be highly 


useful to have a number of lawyers who would start forging the 


philosophy of such law. This, however, is quite a different matter 


than having lawyers who specialize in FCC filings.




ISOC IETF Move to 


Geneva under ITU Wing a Bad Idea




COOK Report: Let's close by asking your opinion about a rumored 


outcome to this if the ILPF continues to levy its attack against 


both the ISOC and IETF. We have heard several suggestions that 


both might flee for protection to the ITU in Geneva. One 


prominent figure suggested privately to us that the ISOC and 


IANA should go to the ITU and that the ITU could anoint the 


IANA with the authority to register top level domain names world 


wide.  How does the ITU play out in all this?




Farber: I think there are a couple of problems. First of all it is not 


clear that the ITU has the legal power to do this. ISOC and IETF 


have a liaison relationship with the ITU because, in fact, we want 


the IETF standards to be inserted within the ITU's own standards 


mechanism. IETF, although it is not a part of ITU, does collaborate 


with it. Having said all this, I don't see the current culture of ITU 


and IETF living very well together. There are some international 


issues that may take treaty mechanisms to solve. But I would 


personally much rather see the creation of an international 


network union. Remember we have an international postal union. 


An INU would not be a bad idea to address those issues that must 


be addressed by nation states under law.




COOK Report: Is the idea of incorporating both the ISOC and IETF 


as Article 60 Corporations under Swiss law and getting what 


results under a legal protective umbrella of ITU a non starter?




Farber:   I think it would be a socially very difficult process. I am 


not sure I'd like to see it happen right now. I'd much rather see 


the current close liaison continued. ISOC has no mechanism to 


enforce international behavior. ITU potentially does.  But ITU has 


no mechanism to set standards which are effectively deployable 


in the Internet.




Unless personalities cause extreme difficulties, I don't see any 


reason why all these organizations can't work together in a 


compatible and collaborative way. The Internet is going to get 


very very complicated very fast and we don't have the energy to 


waste on personality based disputes.






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