Re: [inbox] Re: Supporters urge halt to hacker's, extradition to US

[rholgstad <rholgstad () gmail com>]

thanks for this amazing insight. you must be a 5 time cissp

James Matthews wrote:
> When you break into a system using an exploit there is a chance that 
> the shellcode will crash the system.
>
> On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 11:03 AM, Exibar <exibar () thelair com 
> <mailto:exibar () thelair com>> wrote:
>
>      McKinnon did cause damage:
>
>     "The charges include one incident - shortly after the attacks on
>     September
>     11 2001 - which brought down a network of 300 computers at the
>     Earle naval
>     weapons station. Another raid apparently left 2,000 government
>     machines in
>     Washington inoperable."
>     http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2006/apr/28/hacking.security
>
>      A message left by him on a system:
>
>     "As part of his quest he left this message on an Army computer in
>     2002:
>     "U.S. foreign policy is akin to government-sponsored terrorism these
>     days.... It was not a mistake that there was a huge security stand
>     down on
>     September 11 last year ... I am SOLO. I will continue to disrupt
>     at the
>     highest levels."
>     http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/08/uk-hacker-gary.html  (and
>     many
>     other sources with the same message)
>
>      Sure sounds like a criminal that knows what he's doing, and is
>     doing it
>     willfully, doesn't it?
>
>      Oh yah, and he's really only facing a fine and up to 10 years of
>     prison
>     time in the US...  I guess things really are different translating
>     to the
>     metric system in the UK...
>      http://www.fortlewismwr.com/Computer_Fraud_Abuse_Act.htm
>
>      Wondering what the maximum term in the UK is for the same crime?
>      Hold on
>     to your seat...
>     LIFE IN PRISON (see next paragraph)
>
>     "As the Divisional Court itself pointed out (at para 34), the
>     gravity of the
>     offences alleged against the appellant should not be understated: the
>     equivalent domestic offences include an offence under section 12
>     of the
>     Aviation and Maritime Security Act 1990 for which the maximum
>     sentence is
>     life imprisonment."
>     http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldjudgmt/jd080730/mckinn-1
>     .htm
>     <http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200708/ldjudgmt/jd080730/mckinn-1.htm>
>       That link is a link to the very court brief itself on McKinnin's
>     appeal
>     in the UK...
>
>       McKinnon should face the charges of computer crime that he's
>     facing.  He
>     should, and will, be tried, either in the US or in the UK.  But,
>     keep in
>     mind that it is the UK that will extradite him, and it is the UK
>     that has
>     ruled that he *should* be extradited for his crimes....
>
>
>     Ok, I'm done now :-)
>
>      Exibar
>
>
>     -----Original Message-----
>     From: full-disclosure-bounces () lists grok org uk
>     <mailto:full-disclosure-bounces () lists grok org uk>
>     [mailto:full-disclosure-bounces () lists grok org uk
>     <mailto:full-disclosure-bounces () lists grok org uk>] On Behalf Of
>     Kyrian
>     Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2008 7:31 AM
>     To: full-disclosure () lists grok org uk
>     <mailto:full-disclosure () lists grok org uk>
>     Subject: [inbox] Re: [Full-disclosure] Supporters urge halt to
>     hacker's,extradition to US
>
>     full-disclosure-request () lists grok org uk
>     <mailto:full-disclosure-request () lists grok org uk> wrote:
>     >> "American officials involved in this case have stated that they
>     want
>     >> to see him 'fry'."-- BBC.
>     >>
>     [IANAL, correct me if I'm wrong, etc, but...]
>
>     Yes, that's a large part of the problem.
>
>     That courts *can* be bought (usually indirectly via already-bought
>     officials, or more nasty methods), and that government officials have
>     said the above makes it worse still.
>
>     The thought that US law was apparently changed from requiring
>     damage to
>     systems to get a conviction to not requiring such damage, very
>     recently,
>     is another problem.
>
>     The fact that neither the US or the UK (as far as I'm aware) actually
>     has a sane enough legal framework for this sort of thing, or enough
>     police (anyonewho's dealt with the UK's former "High Tech Crime Unit"
>     will know this), judges (there are many examples of judges being
>     "out of
>     touch" in their rulings), etc. who are actually aware enough of the
>     underlying technology to deal with it sensibly is another.
>
>     I agree with whoever said that people should be extradited to the
>     country in which they caused damage, but not under circumstances like
>     these, and not when there is no agreed standard of law between the
>     country the person would be extradited from, and the one they
>     would go to.
>
>     In the UK it still requires damage to be done for it to be a criminal
>     offense, and that does not seem set to change.
>
>     That it is possible to cause damage to (badly managed) systems by
>     doing
>     absolutely nothing in a lot of circumstances (as I am finding right
>     now), that logs can be faked, and that the dividing line between
>     probes
>     versus actual hacking attempts is at times a very narrow one, there is
>     plenty of reason not to agree extradite Gary.
>
>     That he's "autistic" is probably neither here nor there, I'm
>     afraid, as
>     it seems to be very common for people involved in computing the be
>     somewhere high on the autistic spectrum (even if they are not
>     'officially' autistic). I have taken the test. I'm not telling, but I
>     know what I'm talking about.
>
>     So, I shall be there, I won't be shouting or chanting, but I will be
>     there. I hope that the event is not hijacked by another purpose, and
>     that I do not get shot by the armed police at the US Embassy there (it
>     is a scarey looking place, which puts me on edge whenever I'm near).
>     Strangely I also find myself wondering if the staff there are
>     paying the
>     London congestion charge yet, rather than ignoring it...?
>
>     Just my 2c, or so.
>
>     K.
>
>     --
>     Kev Green, aka Kyrian. E: kyrian&#64;ore.org <http://ore.org> WWW:
>     http://kyrian.ore.org/
>     Linux/Security <http://kyrian.ore.org/Linux/Security>
>     Contractor/LAMP Coder/ISP, via http://www.orenet.co.uk/
>                     DJ via http://www.hellnoise.co.uk/
>
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