Full Disclosure mailing list archives
Re: Free Iraq
From: "Garrett M. Groff" <groffg () gmgdesign com>
Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 12:59:42 -0400
A thoughtful reply was posed to my address rather than the list. I'll keep the sender anonymous & post my reply since others have posed similar concerns: Excellent point. Initially, a "puppet regime" would be in place to run the country on a day to day basis. Actually, I'm more concerned about the pertinent country's 1) access to the global economy as well as 2) security. Point 2 is obvious enough, so I'll focus on point 1. Simply stated, countries that have or are moving in the direction of broad economic integration with the rest of the world (i.e., that are or are becoming more "globalized," to use the vogue term) tend to be more moderate in their ideologies, better (or getting better) in their governance and governmental transparency, and more economically productive. On that last point, I'll take keeping people busy with jobs over the prospect of millions of "idle hands." Economics binds people together, even if they're of disparate cultures and beliefs, and gives them a means of constructive, non-violent engagement with each other. It leads to idea-sharing that would otherwise be difficult and discouraged. It leads to distribution of power away from the central government, as people compete constructively in the private sector rather than just politically in the halls of power. Oh, and it also increases aggregate prosperity in the region, and by extension, across the globe. Globalization is the answer to Salafist (Sunni extremist)-borne terrorism in the long run (or any terrorist ideological movement), as alternate view points dilute local/regional extremism and, pragmatically, give people other things to do. The same effect occurs in rogue regimes, assuming we (or someone) is able to "persuade" the heads of state in those regimes to allow exterior connectivity. The strategic vision that I'm suggesting is that we use our global power projection as the initial phase in taking out stubborn regimes. That's a small part of the picture, but still a necessary piece. - G ----- Original Message ----- From: [REMOVED] To: "Garrett M. Groff" <groffg () gmgdesign com> Sent: Thursday, March 27, 2008 10:38 AM Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Free Iraq
Only problem is that the "re-building" usually involves the installation of a dictator who supports American policies at the expense of that nation's people's rights. -- [NAME REMOVED] On 3/27/08, Garrett M. Groff <groffg () gmgdesign com> wrote:Excellent points, with exception to the gratuitious name-calling (just b/c there are annoying people on this list who throw out invective doesn't mean we should submit to our temptation to do the same vile practice back to them). I'll add the following (despite the fact that it's grossly off-topic!). The Iraq war was more than just a follow-up to a UN resolution or two. It was a desire by neo-conservatives to re-make the Middle East. That desire is partly strategic and partly political. Strategic: eliminate the threat of WMD proliferation (including to Salafist groups like Al Qaeda) by scaring rogue-ish countries into thinking "they're next" if they don't behave (think, Libya). The strategic plan was to go beyond Iraq and is often referred to as a "domino effect" whereby other mid-east nations liberalize their political systems and economies. Political: free up huge oil fields in Mesopotamia, bringing down global oil prices. Also, empower Republicans, making them appear more responsive & pro-active in a post-911 world to threats posed by rogue nations & global terrorist groups. My focus is strategic, since the political side-effects are less important and less justifiable than the strategic argument. Result... Unforutnately, the nation-rebuilding effort is not going well (compared to the actual "war" which went well by historic standards, lasting only about 4 weeks; everything since has involved dealing with the war's aftermath). I can think of specific things that would have made the nation re-building campaign much more likely to succeed. Rather than a lengthy explanation on that, I'll say this. Think about what would have happened if the Bush administration weren't so inept and if Iraq had been a successful model of nation re-building. That model could be replicated to other nation-states that are arguably and egregiously bad, be it countries with a) too much government (dictatorships) or b) too little government (many African states, which are tribal & lack sufficient central governance). A "nation re-making" process that falls under UN legitimacy would be powerful, shifting the American focus from maintaining the "superpower status quo" to "making the world better." Sounds controversial (like some imperial colonial fantasy), but try living in the DPRK, Cuba, or Sudan, and tell me those nations aren't screwed up and wouldn't go for a "nation re-making" make-over, provided that it actually worked. The US (and others) will certainly engage in nation re-building again. If you don't believe that, then check out recent US history. It's really just a question of when, where, and to what extent. Next time, I hope the war's aftermath goes substantially better and involves broad international legitimacy, not to mention significant involvement in the post-war phase (where the US actually needs allies). - G ----- Original Message ----- From: <Throwaway1 () columbus rr com> To: <full-disclosure () lists grok org uk> Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 8:22 PM Subject: Re: [Full-disclosure] Free Iraq
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- Re: Free Iraq Throwaway1 () columbus rr com (Mar 26)
- Re: Free Iraq josh (Mar 26)
- Re: Free Iraq Garrett M. Groff (Mar 27)
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- Re: Free Iraq Garrett M. Groff (Mar 27)
- Re: Free Iraq Razi Shaban (Mar 27)
- Re: Free Iraq Garrett M. Groff (Mar 27)
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- Re: Free Iraq I. D. (Mar 27)
- Re: Free Iraq Razi Shaban (Mar 27)
- Re: Free Iraq josh (Mar 27)
- Re: Free Iraq Razi Shaban (Mar 27)
- Re: Free Iraq Peter Dawson (Mar 27)
- Re: Free Iraq Paul Schmehl (Mar 27)
- Re: Free Iraq Valdis . Kletnieks (Mar 27)