Full Disclosure mailing list archives
re: Most common keystroke loggers?
From: Nick FitzGerald <nick () virus-l demon co uk>
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 13:31:56 +1300
mz4ph0d () gmail com to Lyal Collins:
In 1996, this virtual keypad concept was broken by taking 10x10 pixel images under the cursor click, showing the number/letters used in that password. Virtual keypads are just a minor change of tactics, not a long term resolution to this risk, imho.While it's obviously NOT the most secure way, that absolutely nothing can be considered secure if the system is compromised, that it would depend on either depending on either Javascript being enabled on the client-side or using Java (or perhaps Flash) for the interface elements, and using a random system to interpret the results (because the interaction with the server over the network can also likely be parsed), etc, etc ... What about a system that used a randomly built and placed keyboard ...
What's with this obsession with annoying the user with random placement? And _much_ worse, random key layout? Neither buy you anything, nor does the combination, so stop suggesting them already.
... where the button (or more effectively the entire keyboard, though less usable obviously) went blank on mouseover and click?
Absolutely trivially broken. As most key loggers already monitor the web page (or the domain of the web page) all they need do is add a "grab a screen shot when the randomized keypad window pops open from <URL>" and maybe a "grab the top-left window location of that window" then all the "keylogger" needes to do is record the positions of mouse clicks. Broken. Perhaps twenty minutes coding... And don't get me started on the usability issues -- it would be entirely useless for most fine-motor or visually impaired users who would be able to use a normal (onscreen) keyboard...
That would at least stop two of those problems, those being basic keylogging, and screenshots of the hotspot on click.
Yet it entirely fails to solve the problem of recording the keys that the user "presses", "types" or however you prefer to express it. The _point_ is not to prevent keylogging _pre se_ but to prevent stealing the _information_ conveyed in the "keying". Your suggested scheme is precisely useless for solving that problem.
At least then if a system like this is the only one that is deemed doable it would be more secure than one that didn't have those features. Yes? It may as well be on the higher end of insecure than the lower end, (if "insecure" can be seen as a scale, as unfortunately it often has to be in the real world with budgets and stupid management).
This is just as insecure as a plain onscreen keyboard, and with less usability. Sounds like a bargain at any price -- NOT! You are deeply confused if you think "is totally trivial and hasn't been attacked _yet_" is in any meaningful way "more secure" than "is equally trivial and has already been broken".
Z.
Yes, go back to sleep... Regards, Nick FitzGerald _______________________________________________ Full-Disclosure - We believe in it. Charter: http://lists.grok.org.uk/full-disclosure-charter.html Hosted and sponsored by Secunia - http://secunia.com/
Current thread:
- Re: Most common keystroke loggers?, (continued)
- Re: Most common keystroke loggers? foofus (Dec 02)
- Re: Most common keystroke loggers? Nick FitzGerald (Dec 02)
- Re: Most common keystroke loggers? Anonymous Squirrel (Dec 02)
- RE: Most common keystroke loggers? Jan Nielsen (Dec 02)
- Re: Most common keystroke loggers? foofus (Dec 02)
- Re: Re: Most common keystroke loggers? Michael Holstein (Dec 01)
- RE: Most common keystroke loggers? Lyal Collins (Dec 01)
- RE: Most common keystroke loggers? Jeroen van Meeuwen (Dec 02)
- re: Most common keystroke loggers? Nick FitzGerald (Dec 01)
- re: Most common keystroke loggers? Frank Knobbe (Dec 02)
- RE: Most common keystroke loggers? Debasis Mohanty (Dec 02)
- Re: Most common keystroke loggers? Michael Holstein (Dec 02)
- Re: Most common keystroke loggers? ascii (Dec 02)
- Re: Most common keystroke loggers? Rodrigo Barbosa (Dec 02)
- Re: Most common keystroke loggers? Blue Boar (Dec 02)
- Re: Most common keystroke loggers? Frank Knobbe (Dec 02)
- Re: Most common keystroke loggers? Blue Boar (Dec 02)
- Re: Most common keystroke loggers? Frank Knobbe (Dec 02)