IDS mailing list archives
Re: Target based IDS review and discussion in Information Security
From: Martin Roesch <roesch () sourcefire com>
Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 17:35:26 -0500
Hi Andy, On Jan 9, 2004, at 4:11 PM, Andy Cuff [Talisker] wrote:
Hi Marty I've seen the term "target IDS" used for a variety of differing IDSsolutions, well three to be exact; file integrity checkers, Network Node IDS and the event contextualization (cool word) that you are speaking of. IMHOyour use of the term is the most fitting.
Thanks. :)
I'm sure I first came across theterm in Rebecca Bace's book on IDS published in '99. However I have loaned it to someone and therefore cannot confirm this. The term is quite sexy from a marketing sense and therefore open to misuse, a bit like Hybrid IDS whichthankfully seems to have died a death.
Could be, I never noticed it there. I remember the moment I blurted it forth distinctly, I was in San Francisco by the Embarcadero Center with the Hiverworld crew (some of which are still on this list) talking about using scanners to try to preload the data into the NIDS and I said "it'd be like a target-based IDS or something". :) I'm certainly not claiming a monopoly over the term, but in the context of this discussion I believe the term as I defined it is appropriate.
Whilst I can see the efficiency in what you are saying regarding the sensor itself understanding the network (NFR and Sourcefire), conducting the TIDS role at the system that combines the IDS information with the vulnerability and fingerprinting data (Tenable and ISS) surely provides the analyst withthe same information on the screen at the end of the day, furthermore historical raw data will still be in the database regardless of the targeting transformation.
This kind of ignores the false negative case and the signal/noise ratio, if you don't detect squat because the bad guy evaded you then having the fanciest backend correlator/contextualizer isn't going to be worth anything.
Improving the quality of the data is what this exercise is all about, if the data coming out of the sensor is a bunch of junk and you miss all the true attacks (which is possible in the Ptacek & Newsham scenarios) then you haven't bought yourself anything. It's not about efficiency at all, it's about whether your sensor is capable of doing its basic job. A TIDS (as opposed to a target-based sensor) needs to have all three of the components I outlined, but if you don't bother to do the sensor then you've got a net gain of data reduction on questionable data.
-Marty
take care -andyPS if whoever I lent the IDS book to, could return it, I'd really appreciate it ;o) AND if you're the person I borrowed it from, I'll get it back to youASAP. Talisker Security Tools Directory http://www.securitywizardry.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Roesch" <roesch () sourcefire com> To: "Joel Snyder" <Joel.Snyder () Opus1 COM> Cc: <focus-ids () securityfocus com> Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 6:48 PMSubject: Re: Target based IDS review and discussion in Information SecurityJust read the article and I have a few comments.First, I find it troubling that the history and full meaning of the term"target-based IDS" (which I coined in 2000) was omitted. That this article didn't review any fully target-based IDS products will almostcertainly leave readers with a misunderstanding of what target-based IDSreally is. Target-based IDS has two components, a correlation mechanism *and* a target-based IDS sensor, this article only reviews the former. Second, while I recall that you were concerned that the full concept was too complex for people (i.e. Information Security Magazine's readers) to understand, I believe that shielding them from the entire concept is a disservice. For the benefit of the readers in this forum, I'll repeat myself from our exchange in November: "Additionally, since I came up with the term "Target-based IDS" I'd like to define the components of a true TIDS. TIDS is *not* event->vuln correlation, that's event contextualization (or impact assessment). We perform event contextualization so that we can reduce the number of events generated by a NIDS to a manageable amount, but it's only one leg of a full blown TIDS solution. There are three classes of problems in IDS that require us to transition to TIDS: 1) Lack of impact assessment/prioritization 2) Lack of host context (OS identification, service detection) 3) Lack of network context (topology discovery) Problem one stops us from getting use of the data generated by IDSes. The entire value of IDS is in its output, if we can't reduce that output to information that's useful to us as administrators then the usefulness of entire system is limited. Tenable and ISS [mfr: andCisco] both have solutions to solve problem 1 and Sourcefire is workingon one (RNA).Problems 2 and 3 are what Ptacek and Newsham were talking about. If anattacker can know more about the targets he's attacking than the IDS, he can use that knowledge to get around the IDS. If you're going to defeat that then you need to drive the host and network context into the IDS process itself, post-processing won't buy you anything if theIDS sensor isn't as accurate as possible. This is the *heart* of TIDS,you can't have a TIDS if you don't incorporate host/network context directly into the IDS process itself, the accuracy of the system will always be suspect and the 1st part of the triad will not be as useful as it should be." There are two vendors who are working on target-based IDS sensors thatI know of, Sourcefire (my company) and NFR (which is shipping a passivefingerprinter with their latest release). I think you probably should have mentioned this in the article, as well as listed the vendors who are working on full target-based IDS implementations (only Sourcefire AFAIK but it wouldn't surprise me if NFR and others were headed this way). -Marty On Jan 7, 2004, at 4:25 PM, Joel Snyder wrote:There has been a lot of discussion on this list about target-based IDSin the last few months. A review of three products I wrote for Information Security has just popped up and is available on the magazine's web site. The URL is: http://infosecuritymag.techtarget.com/ss/ 0,295796,sid6_iss306_art540,00.html Informed commentary and feedback is always welcome. jms-- Joel M Snyder, 1404 East Lind Road, Tucson, AZ, 85719Phone: +1 520 324 0494 (voice) +1 520 324 0495 (FAX) jms () Opus1 COM http://www.opus1.com/jms Opus One--------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- Martin Roesch - Founder/CTO, Sourcefire Inc. - (410)290-1616 Sourcefire: Snort-based Enterprise Intrusion Detection Infrastructure roesch () sourcefire com - http://www.sourcefire.com Snort: Open Source Network IDS - http://www.snort.org---------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- -----
-- Martin Roesch - Founder/CTO, Sourcefire Inc. - (410)290-1616 Sourcefire: Snort-based Enterprise Intrusion Detection Infrastructure roesch () sourcefire com - http://www.sourcefire.com Snort: Open Source Network IDS - http://www.snort.org --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Current thread:
- Target based IDS review and discussion in Information Security Joel Snyder (Jan 08)
- Re: Target based IDS review and discussion in Information Security Martin Roesch (Jan 09)
- Re: Target based IDS review and discussion in Information Security Joel Snyder (Jan 09)
- Re: Target based IDS review and discussion in Information Security Jeff Nathan (Jan 12)
- RE: Target based IDS review and discussion in Information Security Craig H. Rowland (Jan 12)
- Re: Target based IDS review and discussion in Information Security Martin Roesch (Jan 13)
- RE: Target based IDS review and discussion in Information Security Craig H. Rowland (Jan 13)
- Re: Target based IDS review and discussion in Information Security Ron Gula (Jan 13)
- Re: Target based IDS review and discussion in Information Security Joel Snyder (Jan 09)
- Re: Target based IDS review and discussion in Information Security Andy Cuff [Talisker] (Jan 12)
- Re: Target based IDS review and discussion in Information Security Martin Roesch (Jan 12)
- Re: Target based IDS review and discussion in Information Security Martin Roesch (Jan 09)
- <Possible follow-ups>
- Re: Target based IDS review and discussion in Information Security Richard Bejtlich (Jan 13)
- RE: Target based IDS review and discussion in Information Security Teicher, Mark (Mark) (Jan 13)