RE: Is IDS/IPS worthless?

["Bob Walder" <bwalder () spamcop net>]

For those confused about the meaning of IPS or its usefulness, our
latest competitive analysis report looks at some of the market leaders
in that area and attempts to answer at least some of the questions

It can be viewed on-line at www.nss.co.uk/ips

Regards,

Bob Walder
Director
The NSS Group





> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: SecurIT Informatique Inc. [mailto:securit () iquebec com] 
> > Sent: 23 February 2004 19:36
> > To: Andrew Plato
> > Cc: focus-ids () securityfocus com
> > Subject: Re: Is IDS/IPS worthless?
> >
> >
> > Hello.  I thought I'd chip in my 2 cents...
> >
> > First of all, I think that there is some confusion building 
> > around the 
> > terms IDS and IPS, and the Gartner report is probably one of 
> > the main 
> > reasons for that, along with vendor's marketing pitches.  
> > Without having a 
> > clear definition of these two terms, it becomes futiles to 
> > determine if 
> > they are useful or not.
> >
> > IPS seems to mean "firewalls with IDS built-in", but in this 
> > definition, I 
> > think it is too limiting to what an IDS really is; an IDS is 
> > not only a 
> > NIDS, but also HIDS, anomally based, log analysis, etc...  
> > Also, I simply 
> > don't see how someone could move "IDS" capabilities into a 
> > firewall and 
> > end-up with a similar security level than by using a more 
> > traditional, 
> > decentralized approach.  For example, how can an IPS check 
> > for system 
> > binaires integrity on the hosts on your network?
> >
> > Now, with that being said, I think it is just plain 
> > misleading to speak of 
> > IDS/IPS in the same sentence, as I've showed demonstrated 
> > clearly that an 
> > IPS could be more seen as an evolution of the traditional NIDS 
> > setup.  While I don't have much faith in IPS as they are 
> > presented today, I 
> > don't think that the fate of IDS at large is not linked to 
> > the future 
> > success or failure of IPS technology.
> >
> > I have developped a whole series of tools in the only goal 
> > of improving 
> > ways to detect intrusions using new techniques that can be 
> > built around an 
> > existing security architecture.  I wrote an article on this 
> > whole topic, 
> > which is yet to be released as it is planned for 
> > presentation at some 
> > conferences this year, and I have submitted it to 
> > SecurityFocus on numerous 
> > tries, but with no news from them so far.  I plan to release 
> > it in 1-2 
> > months from now.
> >
> > To finish, I'd just say that I really don't think that IDS 
> > is dead, it is 
> > just going to evolve, and I've been trying hard at 
> > implementing some of 
> > these evolutions myself in the Windows world.  Just don't be 
> > surprised that 
> > if someone tries to sell you a cometitive product to IDS'es, 
> > then they'll 
> > try to downplay the role of IDS technologies in order to 
> > make their own 
> > product look good.  At this point, it is up to everybody and 
> > make their own 
> > decisions in this debate, and see the real trends out of the 
> > pure marketing 
> > hype.
> >
> > MHO
> >
> > Adam Richard
> > SécurIT Informatique Inc.
> > http://securit.iquebec.com/
> >
> > At 11:31 AM 20/02/2004, Andrew Plato wrote:
> >
> >
> > > I've noticed something lately and I wonder if anybody else has 
> > > experienced this. At a meeting recently, I was told by a number of 
> > > people that IDS/IPS is a "worthless waste of IT resources" and 
> > > "providing no real value to an organization."  The speaker at this 
> > > particular meeting challenged me to say "what business 
> > goals did the 
> > > implementation of an IDS/IPS achieve?"  I responded that an 
> > IDS gives 
> > > insight to what is happening on a network and provides 
> > critical data to 
> > > more effectively focus resources on real problems. An IPS builds a 
> > > level of trust and protection from intrusions as well as 
> > insight into 
> > > the function and behavior of a network. (Okay, it was a 
> > vanilla answer, 
> > > I
> > > admit.)
> > >
> > > So this speaker then challenged me to come up with 
> > verifiable metrics. 
> > > I replied that he would have to define what metrics he 
> > wants? What does 
> > > he consider a "viable metric" for performance.  He said 
> > "did they sell 
> > > more products, make more money?"  I replied "why is that the only 
> > > metric that businesses can understand?  A lot of complex 
> > things go into 
> > > 'making money' and IT operations is a small part of that. 
> > Marketing, 
> > > strategic vision, and many other factors have a much more profound 
> > > impact on 'making money' than a single IT security 
> > solution. However, 
> > > insight into operations and security is a critical 
> > component of IT. How 
> > > do you know you have been broken into if you don't have any 
> > mechanisms 
> > > to detect those intrusions? There is clear value in 
> > investment in locks 
> > > and security cameras, why not have similar investments into 
> > the digital 
> > > equivalents."
> > >
> > > This shut him up, for a while, but it highlighted a growing 
> > trend I am 
> > > noticing. It seems like there are a lot of people with an 
> > agenda right 
> > > now to shoot down the value of IPS/IDS technologies. IPS in 
> > particular 
> > > seems to be painted as a "marketing ploy."  I also hear the 
> > story "they 
> > > bought and IDS and it just sat in a rack and did nothing"  a lot 
> > > (usually from people who don't even know what an IDS does.)
> > >
> > > What is happening here?  Anybody have any idea why there is 
> > a growing 
> > > "anti-IDS" attitude. Is it the failure of IDS to produce 
> > value in an 
> > > organization? Is the Gartner "IDS is dead" report having THAT much 
> > > affect on the industry?  Are the IDS vendors victims of their own 
> > > over-marketing?  Am I a paranoid moron?
> > >
> > > I am curious to hear other people's ideas on and strategies 
> > for dealing 
> > > with these objections.
> > >
> > >
> > > ___________________________________
> > > Andrew Plato, CISSP
> > > President/Principal Consultant
> > > ANITIAN  ENTERPRISE  SECURITY
> > >
> > > 3800 SW Cedar Hills Blvd, Suite 298
> > > Beaverton, OR 97005
> > > 503-644-5656 Office
> > > 503-214-8069 Fax
> > > 503-201-0821 Mobile
> > > www.anitian.com
> > > ___________________________________
> > >
> > > GPG fingerprint: 16E6 C5B0 B6CB F287 776E E9A9 AF47 9914 
> > 3582 633D GPG 
> > > public key available at: http://www.anitian.com/corp/keys.htm
> > >
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