Firewall Wizards mailing list archives
Re: Re: Ethics, morality, and mental retardation
From: Scott Stursa <stursa () mailer fsu edu>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2004 17:20:01 -0400 (EDT)
Jeez, what a subject to delurk on. Particularly since I don't really have time for this today. Let me offer the perspective of someone who did a couple of years of grad study in psychology (dropped out when I decided electronic brains were more interesting), and, more relevant, has spent several years working with law-enforcement folks on cases which involved this university's IT resources (not just hacking, but identity-theft and other crimes). On Fri, 29 Oct 2004, J. Oquendo wrote:
You're quite right Mr. Ranum, I say sentence everyone for the rest of their lives to rot in a prison at your taxpayer expense.
He did not suggest that, nor has anyone else.
Why not there is no such thing as reform.
I'm not sure there is, but more on that later.
A lifetime sentence to walk in the park. Tennis, volleyball, basketball, baseball, lifting weights, listening to music, watching weekly videos, and sneaking of the compound when the guards aren't looking, all at your expense.
You obviously haven't spent any time in an American prison, or personally know anyone who has.
Punish EVERYONE to a lifetime sentence. There is no reform for anyone who's committed a crime, or who has been charged with one in society even when found innocent. Their lives are shattered forever without apologies or double takes. All that is remembered was the negativity.
The U.S. criminal justice system is far from perfect, but the fact is that most of those convicted are guilty, and most of those innocent are acquitted. FYI, the only jury on which I've ever served took all of ten minutes to acquit the defendent (who was obviously being framed by someone who didn't like him, and prosecuted by a ambitious young state attorney). I encountered this individual several years later, introduced myself, accepted his thanks and was pleased to hear that he'd not experienced any lasting effects (job loss, social stigmatization, etc.)
You seem to forget without a criminally malicious "hacker" you would have no career, nor business for that matter. While I respect your work from the background to the utmost extreme, I find your view humorous and disturbing. Did you ever consider that most of the black/greyhat community keeps the security world on its toes with discoveries that put food on your table?
Oh, *that* one. Try that on a cop some time. The response you'll get is that most of them would happily do something else, but since nothing short of divine intervention is going to stop people from commiting crimes, then it's necessary for *someone* to step up to the plate and make an effort to prevent and/or solve crime. If you happen to be more effective than others at this, then to some degree it becomes a matter of concience that you do so. I got into this line of work because I seem to be better at it than most of my local peers. For this reason I continue with it, despite the fact that for two years now my real estate investments have generated more income than my salary.
Has it occurred to you that via someone's dabbling with the unthinkable they've perhaps prevented something even more unthinkable? Money isn't everything in this world. There are a lot of people who have paid their dues in society whether you realize it or not, so your view of sentencing someone to a lifetime of punishment is flawed, and ridiculous.
A couple of fallacies here. The first is that you seem to equate "not rewarding" with "punishment". Refusing to pay a convicted hacker to give a keynote speech is is a long way from tossing him in a cell and throwing away the key. Get real. The other is this the naive notion that a criminal who's served his sentence is "reformed". At best they understand that they're not as smart as they thought they were and are as likely to get caught the next time as the last time. Even then, most don't get that and eventually end up back behind bars. There's been some comments in this discussion regarding the value of "knowing how they think". There's no mystery here - it boils down to two core beliefs that they have, which are 1) they think they're too smart to get caught, and 2) they engage in blame-the-victim-think. Ever wonder how someone can bilk some little-old-lady out of her life savings yet feel absolutely no guilt? Simple - they put it on her, as in "she should have known better than to believe the line I gave her". This is their standard rationale. The victim had a mis-configured firewall/flimsy front door lock/overly revealing dress, and therefore "deserved" to be hacked/robbed/raped. I've busted a number of local script kiddies over the years and this is invariably the argument they offer. If you bother to go research "anti-social personality disorder" (criminologyese for "criminal mind") and do a little reading on developmental psychology, what you'll learn is that if someone has not grown themselves a concience by their early teens then it's unlikely that they ever will. A prison sentence is not going to fix that - it just keeps them out of circulation for a while. If they continue to commit crime, then you take them out of circulation permanently (this is the basis for the "three strikes - you're out" laws passed in many of the United States).
Have you not seen recent stats? You know the one that shows 1 in every 37 Americans has at some point gone through the "machines" of justice. Or did that elude you in your quest to punish people forever? Why not just make the US one big prison system you would be a nice Warden. (http://www.bop.gov/hrmpg/hrmcurrent.html)
Again, you are engaging in simple-minded binomial-think. Refusing to reward someone for criminal behavior is not equivalent to imprisoning them. What part of that do you not understand? In my view, an ex-hacker who accepts payment so that he may publicly promote his crime-enabling rationale ("it's your fault for being hacked - never mind that I made the immoral choice to hack you") does not qualify as "reformed", and being someone with a concience I could never condemm someone for refusing to participate in such a scam. - SLS ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Scott L. Stursa 850/645-2397 Network Security Assessment stursa () mailer fsu edu Technology Integration/User Services Florida State University - No good deed goes unpunished - _______________________________________________ firewall-wizards mailing list firewall-wizards () honor icsalabs com http://honor.icsalabs.com/mailman/listinfo/firewall-wizards
Current thread:
- Re: Ethics, morality, and mental retardation J. Oquendo (Oct 29)
- RE: Re: Ethics, morality, and mental retardation Pete Lindstrom (Oct 29)
- Re: Re: Ethics, morality, and mental retardation Scott Stursa (Oct 29)
- Re: Ethics, morality, and mental retardation Marcus J. Ranum (Oct 30)
- <Possible follow-ups>
- RE: Re: Ethics, morality, and mental retardation Ames, Neil (Oct 29)