Re: "I hunt Sys-Admins"

[Mara Tam <marasawr () gmail com>]

1. ‘Critical infrastructure’ is contextually dependent. It encompasses the physical and non-physical systems and 
services whose damage, interruption, or destruction would deleteriously impact national or economic security, public 
health, or public safety. Because these systems and services are defined as critical by the consequences of their 
absence, one can expect a degree of variation from one society to another. That does not make the concept itself 
ridiculous.

2. The problems Dave identifies as unique to cyber are not. Real (i.e. binding / non-rhetorical) red lines are rare, 
and they are rare because they require extraordinary consensus and commitment to standards of behaviour which can be 
(more-or-less) objectively specified. This was difficult in the 19th century, it was difficult in the 20th century, and 
it is still difficult now. Avoiding, preventing the escalation of, and ending conflict are all hard; we are not a 
special snowflake this time.

3. Nuclear deterrence comparisons are thankfully on the decline,[1] but just because cyber is not analogous to nuclear 
does not mean it is without implications for nuclear. Topic for another day.

-Mara
_____
[1] If you’ve not, ready this excellent piece from the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists on why cyber needs to get off 
nuclear's lawn. http://thebulletin.org/flawed-analogy-between-nuclear-and-cyber-deterrence9179 
<http://thebulletin.org/flawed-analogy-between-nuclear-and-cyber-deterrence9179>

> On 12 Jul 2016, at 17:24, Dave Aitel <dave.aitel () gmail com> wrote:
>
> I wrote a slightly longer piece on this today here: 
> http://cybersecpolitics.blogspot.com/2016/07/when-is-cyber-attack-act-of-war.html 
> <http://cybersecpolitics.blogspot.com/2016/07/when-is-cyber-attack-act-of-war.html>
>
> But to address the CERT question directly, I will pose a few distinct arguments as to how Cyber is a special 
> snowflake and CERTS are clearly legitimate targets.
>
> First, the things I've read coming out of the UN/Tallinn have made few inroads into defining the difference between 
> CNE and CNA. From an espionage standpoint, CERTS are clear high priority targets because they collect information on 
> your attacks, but also on other nation states who have been caught, which can be fed directly into your national 
> intrusion response. 
>
> Likewise, while it is annoying to have your CERT non-functional, a CNA attack on a CERT is not life-ending or 
> otherwise special in any way - I'm not privy to whatever discussion at the UN/Tallinn drove them to the conclusion 
> that a CERT was something special in the response fabric - one could as well label "Amazon AWS" as off limits. As 
> much as I love the people on our CERTs, we have duplicate response effort in many different agencies (in particular, 
> DHS/NSA/FBI/CIA/DOD). No sane country is going to take CNE against CERTs off the plate.
>
> If what you're saying is: There are some places you should not attack, I would point out that the translation into 
> cyber world is "There are some effects on systems you should try not to have". For example: "Trojan anything you 
> want, but don't actually damage the dam system near NY because we will respond to that as it could cause massive loss 
> of life and clean water".
>
> The thing that makes Cyber special here is that there is no end to the thread when you pull on it - there is no red 
> line you can draw around a hospital or dam system. 
>
> -dave 
>
> On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 3:04 PM Alex Grigsby <AGrigsby () cfr org <mailto:AGrigsby () cfr org>> wrote:
> I agree with most of the points you raise (esp. with respect to the vagueness of "critical infrastructure") but I'll 
> push back a bit on your CERT point.
>
> You're right that a CERT would likely be a prime target during a conflict, but just because a country would want to 
> pwn a CERT doesn't necessarily mean that it should. Over the last 100+ years, countries have agreed to not 
> deliberately target certain installations in wartime even if it's in their strategic interest to do so. For example, 
> the laws of war prohibit the targeting hospitals or anything with a red cross/red crescent 
> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protective_sign <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protective_sign>) even if it would be 
> militarily advantageous for a country to do so (i.e. less enemies on the battlefield). Same thing goes for 
> restrictions on certain weapons (e.g. chemical weapons in the case of the Geneva protocol or booby traps in the case 
> of the Conventional Weapons convention).
>
> Countries have agreed to these restrictions largely on the basis of reciprocity--we won't do it to you if you don't 
> do it to us. It doesn't necessarily mean that all states will comply, but they create a strong norm in favor of their 
> adherence.
>
> Based on the history of the laws of war, it doesn't seem completely ridiculous that countries could eventually come 
> to some sort of understanding that CERTs are off limits.
>
> Alex
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. "I hunt Sys-Admins" (dave aitel)
>
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> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2016 15:15:12 -0400
> From: dave aitel <dave () immunityinc com <mailto:dave () immunityinc com>>
> To: "dailydave () lists immunityinc com <mailto:dailydave () lists immunityinc com>"
>         <dailydave () lists immunityinc com <mailto:dailydave () lists immunityinc com>>
> Subject: [Dailydave] "I hunt Sys-Admins"
> Message-ID: <5fc94935-e035-6b70-5d55-7f16d7f25992 () immunityinc com <mailto:5fc94935-e035-6b70-5d55-7f16d7f25992 () 
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>
> Occasionally I like to reflect, as you all do, on the various things that have mis-shaped our understanding of cyber 
> war.
>
> For example, take this Intercept article based on the Snowden leaks:
> https://theintercept.com/2014/03/20/inside-nsa-secret-efforts-hunt-hack-system-administrators/ 
> <https://theintercept.com/2014/03/20/inside-nsa-secret-efforts-hunt-hack-system-administrators/>
>
> Viewed in hindsight, this article points very closely at something I'm going to support in depth in an article coming 
> out shortly, which is that *the term "Critical Infrastructure" does not apply in cyber the way defense strategists 
> think it does*. I mention this, which may seem obvious to the readership of this list, because if you read policy 
> papers they go on an on about how nations should avoid "attacking" each others "critical infrastructure" as a "norm". 
> They don't, of course, consider defining a lot of terms in any specificity, but they do mention that under no 
> circumstances should CERTs be attacked. Which clearly is ridiculous because in cyberwar the CERT is something you 
> will have penetrated first so you know when you've been caught everywhere else.
> Likewise, CERTs are usually very easy to attack. Likewise, top on your list is secure () microsoft com <mailto:secure 
> () microsoft com>, and every other security contact. And in order to claim those things as "off limits" we have to 
> declare huge swaths of infrastructure (often unknown ahead of time) as off limits.
>
> Also visible in retrospect is that people love to focus on the catchy phrases. "I hunt sys-admins". Sure you do! But 
> that means your strategic offensive efforts have already failed at least twice. In order to get to the point where "I 
> hunt sys-admins" team is involved, you have to get through "I hunt developers", "I hunt other hackers", and "I hunt 
> system integrators". And even above them is "I hunt standards developers and cryptographers" (aka, NIST :) ).
>
> -dave
>
>
>
>
>
>
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