Security Basics mailing list archives
RE: software to control domain administrators
From: "Bundschuh, Anthony D" <ANTHONY.D.BUNDSCHUH () saic com>
Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 15:33:05 -0700
I have to agree with you. Let's not forget that someone has to configure these so-called controls on the admin. If they can configure it, they are able to undo it also. Besides, if you did not have someone with that total access, what would you do when you need that level of control. I am sure that the vendors would be able to help you out, for a small fortune. I have heard of Novell being able to come in and get your network back when your admin changed the domain admin password when he or she found out that they were getting let go, but I heard it would cost tens of thousands of dollars. As far as central recording of the audit logs, someone has to have access to them, which means they can edit them. It may not be the admin, but conspiracies do happen. -----Original Message----- From: LordInfidel [mailto:LordInfidel () directionweb com] Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 11:01 AM To: Charles Fraser Cc: Diego Teijeiro Ruiz; security-basics () securityfocus com Subject: RE: software to control domain administrators I agree whole heartedly about checks and balances, but that was not the question posed. The question that was posed was, "Does anyone know any software to control, audit, or restrict access or privileges to domain administrators." The "If I can't trust my admin he/she shouldn't be one" is not an archaic thought, it is a reality of computing. This is totally different from granting a user a higher level of permissions to do their work. In your case of granting sudo aka for win32, runas access to a user or junior admin, that is great, should be done and is a standard in modern networked enviorments. But again, we are not talking about limiting that persons access, we are talking about "YOUR" access, the domain admin, the person who gave the junior admin those rights in the first place. There is no such beast as a domain admin account without domain admin rights, it does not exist. It's like trying to restrict root on *nix. root is god over *nix, the same way a domain admin is godlike over windows (i use godlike because the juciest account is the all powerful system account) BTW, Granting a user the necessary rights to do their job with the most restrictive set possible is by no means a new school of thought. It is quite old. <snip> Full domain and enterprise administrators are less and less common in favor of dividing responsibility so administrators can have less rights to perform their day to day functions. </snip> Well, Someone has to got to be in that position, the enterprise just does not manage itself. And that is the person that we are talking about restricting. I have a feeling that your definition of an administrator is much different then mine. I am talking formal Network Administrators, not joe blow end users promoted to a network admin position because they are the most computer savvy. I will restate my mantra differently, If you can not trust someone to be in a position of complete un-adulterated control of your network, then they should not be in that position. Audit, Audit, Audit, Audit. ________________________________ From: Charles Fraser [mailto:fraserc () mail montclair edu] Sent: Mon 5/9/2005 12:02 PM To: LordInfidel Cc: Diego Teijeiro Ruiz; security-basics () securityfocus com Subject: Re: software to control domain administrators "If I can't trust my admin he/she shouldn't be one" is an archaic school of thought. In today's age of compliance and accountability that school of thought needs to be radically changed. There needs to be checks and balances. Which is why security has to be separate from operations. More and more enterprises are following the new school of thought that an employee has the computer access and permissions that it takes for he or she to perform their functions no more no less. Full domain and enterprise administrators are less and less common in favor of dividing responsibility so administrators can have less rights to perform their day to day functions. Windows offers runas and sudo capabilities which we utilize to reduce the number of people who require administrative access. I advocate a central/separate syslog/event viewer server that is not in the domain and the administrators have no access to whatsoever. Now if someone is trying to cover their tracks they can't because the logs are duplicated in real time to the central server. It should be stressed it is not a matter of trust but a matter of checks and balances. Charlie LordInfidel () directionweb com wrote:
One of my co-workers pointed out that my response may of have come off the wrong way... First, Always **Audit Everything**...... I was not advocating 'not auditing'. Trustworthy Admins already do this with the explicit knowledge that they themselves are subject to being audited and that their actions on the network will be logged. The point I was attempting to make before is that a malicious admin or one that feels threatened has the power to reverse that auditing, which the auditing mechanism should reflect anyways. But the problem is compounded if the admin has access to the logs, then there is nothing stopping them from covering their tracks. I apologize if it confused anyone. The overall theme remains the same, if you can't explicitly trust the people who are running your network then they should not be running it. -----Original Message----- From: LordInfidel () directionweb com [mailto:LordInfidel () directionweb com] Sent: Thursday, May 05, 2005 6:02 PM To: Diego Teijeiro Ruiz; security-basics () securityfocus com Subject: RE: software to control domain administrators Probably a little late, been busy, but I did not see a response yet to this. (assuming we are talking about NT/AD Domain Admins) Honestly, if you are looking for something to audit domain admins, then you have bigger problems. Domain admins by the very nature of the account type, have complete control over the domain, second to only enterprise admins. Nothing you install or do will prevent them from removing or modifying it. Even restricting them via NTFS permissions or GPO's does nothing since they can just take ownership and modify the permissions. Keep in mind that spying on a domain admin can have catastrophic effects if they feel threatened by it since they can easily mess up an entire network. Basically, If you can not trust your domain admin(s), then they should probably not be a domain admin and removed from that position of trust. JMO -----Original Message----- From: Diego Teijeiro Ruiz [mailto:dteijeiro () azertia com] Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 5:51 AM To: security-basics () securityfocus com Subject: software to control domain administrators Does anyone know any software to control, audit, or restrict access or privileges to domain administrators. thnx in advance DTR ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Este mensaje y los documentos, que en su caso, lleve anexos, pueden contener informacion confidencial y atane exclusivamente a las personas a las que va dirigido. Cualquier opinion en el contenida, es exclusiva de su autor y no representa necesariamente la opinion de AZERTIA. Si usted no es el destinatario de este mensaje, considerese advertido de que lo ha recibido por error y que cualquier uso, difusion o copia estan prohibidos legalmente. Si ha recibido este mensaje por error, le rogamos que nos lo comunique por la misma via o al telefono 93 207 55 11 y proceda a destruirlo inmediatamente. This email is confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual to whom it is addressed. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of AZERTIA. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this email in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this email is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error please notify it to AZERTIA by telephone on number +34 93 207 55 11. -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Current thread:
- RE: software to control domain administrators LordInfidel (May 06)
- <Possible follow-ups>
- RE: software to control domain administrators LordInfidel (May 09)
- Re: software to control domain administrators Charles Fraser (May 09)
- RE: software to control domain administrators Andrew Shore (May 09)
- RE: software to control domain administrators LordInfidel (May 09)
- RE: software to control domain administrators Andrew Shore (May 09)
- RE: software to control domain administrators Beauford, Jason (May 09)
- RE: software to control domain administrators LordInfidel (May 09)
- RE: software to control domain administrators Keenan Smith (May 11)
- RE: software to control domain administrators Bundschuh, Anthony D (May 10)
- RE: software to control domain administrators Bundschuh, Anthony D (May 12)